Tue May 12 03:51:12 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's pretty amusing because it tends to generate a feedback loop
Tue May 12 03:51:31 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: with the router rejecting the error packet as unhandled, and the mud returning an error for the error
Tue May 12 03:52:22 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: generally speaking, this situation gets triggered on such muds well before it occurs to you to dos them
Tue May 12 03:52:55 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's a pretty edgy case you're describing
Tue May 12 03:53:23 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: It doesn't seem to work since error packets include the original packets.
Tue May 12 03:54:18 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: looks like i set it to actually be 10 of the same packet header in one second
Tue May 12 03:55:38 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: heh irn exclusion too. i bet i figured that one out the hard way
Tue May 12 03:56:27 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: there are 4 routers hooked up to each other
Tue May 12 03:56:59 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: there are people on your mudlist connected to a different router than you
Tue May 12 03:57:13 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but you can communicate with them as if they were on the same router
Tue May 12 03:57:49 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: http://lpmuds.net/forum/index.php?topic=409.0
Tue May 12 04:01:22 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Hmm. Did you relax it? It doesnt seem to catch me doing a few quick locate-req s in succession.
Tue May 12 04:03:32 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but perhaps you missed the last few things i said http://ebspso.dnsalias.org/i3logs/imud_code#bottom
Tue May 12 04:04:32 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Okay. Well too tired to break intermud tonight. Bed. :-)
Tue May 12 04:07:24 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Actually... couldn't routers be transparent to other routers?
Tue May 12 04:09:22 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Well... I don't understand why you need a protocol to handle routers. Imagine: Router1-Router2-MudB. Why does Router1 need to even know Router2 is a router?
Tue May 12 04:10:30 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Unless the goal is to reduce the amount of info that is thrown around, in which case, why do you need authentication?
Tue May 12 04:10:48 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the goal is avoiding one person being a single point of failure
Wed May 13 02:29:05 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Even if those of us logged in now can't answer, someone would eventually see the question when the log on.. :)
Wed May 13 02:31:07 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: well, my question is how do i connect two existing room...because last time i tried i ended up making it wrong and it was like a blackhole :(
Wed May 13 02:32:28 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: add a line like this: "west" : "/realms/kejope/area/room/sample_room.c" in both rooms to tell where the exti goes to.
Wed May 13 02:33:01 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Do you already know where the SetExits line is in that room?
Wed May 13 02:34:16 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: OK. Do you know which two rooms you want to connect? Do you know what the filenames are for both of those?
Wed May 13 02:37:07 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: OK. You need to look in the first room file for a line that starts like this: SetExits(
Wed May 13 02:37:41 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Once you find it, paste the entire line here. I will help you to change it.
Wed May 13 02:39:24 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: "northwest" : "/realms/mel/Calsada_Mines/tunnel_9.c",
Wed May 13 02:40:13 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Yes, great. Now, from that room, which direction do you want to go? and to which room file should it point?
Wed May 13 02:40:56 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: southwest to /realms/mel/Calsada_Mines/tunnel_sq_14
Wed May 13 02:41:02 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: why does tunnel_9 have a .c ending, but tunnel_7 does not?
Wed May 13 02:42:04 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Good catch. I missed that line in the scrolling.
Wed May 13 02:42:06 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: just once that I remember...."peer east"...one way peer worked, one way it didn't
Wed May 13 02:42:32 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: code would load, players could move, but some commands were fussy.
Wed May 13 02:42:38 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Mel, is "tunnel_7" the correct file name, or should it be "tunnel_7.c" ?
Wed May 13 02:43:28 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Are you able to go east correctly as it is now?
Wed May 13 02:44:02 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: but not go back west to where you started?
Wed May 13 02:44:13 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: OK, we will leave that alone for now. I suggest you consider changing the filename to a more standard "tunnel_7.c" and then changing it in this room also.
Wed May 13 02:45:22 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: For your original question, you will insert a line just above the "northwest" part: "southwest" : "/realms/mel/Calsada_Mines/tunnel_sq_14"
Wed May 13 02:45:38 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: But again, strongly suggest that you consider naming the files with a ".c" at the end. :)
Wed May 13 02:46:05 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: need a "," at the end of all but the last line.
Wed May 13 02:46:08 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Oops, I forgot to put the comma at the end of the line for you:
Wed May 13 02:48:35 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: You can use almost any text editor that you are comfortable with.
Wed May 13 02:50:07 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: If you don't have direct access to the files outside of the MUD world, you may want to ask someone there what methods are available for editing files.
Wed May 13 02:50:52 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Sometimes you can use the "ed" command, but it is not pretty. Sometimes you may be able to use an "ftp" program to update the files.
Wed May 13 02:57:33 2009
[imud_code]
Tahin@Kar Unol: Stay far away from ed if you value your sanity. I'm not kidding.
Wed May 13 02:57:49 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Unfortunately, painfully. I avoid it whenever possible.
Wed May 13 02:59:06 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: I am not sure if there are different versions of ed, with major differences in commands.
Wed May 13 02:59:09 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: ok. i'm reading that editor tutorial now so we shall see how it goes :D
Wed May 13 03:02:01 2009
[imud_code]
Tahin@Kar Unol: File Transfer Protocol. Who's hosting the MUD? You should be able to get them to set you up an account.
Wed May 13 03:02:31 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Whenever I was forced to use MUD ed, I just edited on my computer, then deleted on the MUD, then pasted it whole into a fresh file with ed. :)
Wed May 13 03:03:45 2009
[imud_code]
Tahin@Kar Unol: Your mud doesn't happen to have CreWeb, does it? That's a nice way to edit stuff remotely...
Wed May 13 03:16:00 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: delete or rename the original mud file...say roomx.c becomres roomx.cbak
Wed May 13 03:16:36 2009
[imud_code]
Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: copy the file from the text editor and append/insert it into the mud file via ed
Wed May 13 03:25:56 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: qcs just makes an exit in the direction you want to the room you want
Wed May 13 03:27:29 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: type: create room east /whatever/path/to/the/other/room.c
Wed May 13 04:18:17 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: i tried doing that and it messed up the room that i was linking it to
Wed May 13 04:26:00 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: perhaps you werent looking at what you thought
Wed May 13 04:26:13 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: try it again under test conditions, on test rooms
Wed May 13 04:37:25 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: every time i try to update the room it deletes my inventory...
Wed May 13 04:37:48 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah, yer just dropping things, right?
Wed May 13 04:38:17 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: well, i can't tell because there is an error in loading the room and then i can't go back in there.
Wed May 13 04:38:20 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: please read the url i posted: http://dead-souls.net/example.html
Wed May 13 04:38:39 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah people had you editing files you didnt understand with an editor you dont know
Wed May 13 04:39:16 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: but that happened even befor ei started using editor
Wed May 13 04:39:48 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i really have no way of telling you what you saw, since i dont have access to your logs
Wed May 13 04:39:57 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but i'm pretty sure it wasnt what you think it was
Wed May 13 04:40:41 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: stop, chill, start over with some new test rooms, following the instructions this time
Wed May 13 04:40:43 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: *Error in loading object '/realms/mel/Calsada_Mines/tunnel_8'
Wed May 13 04:41:09 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: Object: /secure/sefun/sefun at /secure/sefun/load_object.c:36
Wed May 13 04:41:20 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i cant debug you line by line like this
Wed May 13 04:41:36 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: this is hopeless. post the exact things you did, the code, and the full errors to lpmuds.net/forum
Wed May 13 04:42:00 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: else it's like trying to do cpr on you through a straw from across the room
Wed May 13 04:43:02 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but what i really think you should do is just use the page i posted to understand how to use the qcs
Wed May 13 04:43:50 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: "it didnt work" isnt enough for me to help
Wed May 13 04:43:55 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: i tried it several times and it always does the same thing
Wed May 13 05:02:04 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Forgive me for butting in, but his "east" seems to be missing a ". It has a : instead. Line 38.
Wed May 13 05:04:19 2009
[imud_code]
Wick@StarMUD: It's always some fat 40 year old sitting naked at the computer.
Wed May 13 05:05:35 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: well, i did that, but it did the same thing before when i was only using qcs
Wed May 13 05:05:38 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: now that this room is fixed, have a coffee, read through the qcs url i gave you, and read the creators manual starting on chapter 31
Wed May 13 05:06:16 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: i mean it did an error like that and the exits where messed up.
Wed May 13 05:06:49 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: mel, i am already turning orange and my exterior is toughening
Wed May 13 05:07:05 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: before i fulyl pumpkenize i advise you one more time, and this time seriously
Wed May 13 05:07:27 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Yes, Mel. The docs he refers to are excellent! :)
Wed May 13 05:07:40 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: I don't suppose you kept a backup of your file?
Wed May 13 05:09:44 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: I suspect, with a glance, that if you fixed that one : to ", then the qcs might, maybe be able to continue with that room. :)
Wed May 13 05:10:57 2009
[imud_code]
Mel@Consua: oh great....now the first room i was trying to connect to to begin with isn't connected.
Wed May 13 20:44:44 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Which of these spacings do you find coders more often seem to prefer? A: foreach(...) or B: foreach ( ... ), also C: function(({"aaa", "bbb"})); or D: function( ({ "aaa", "bbb" }) ); I am tired of trying to balance on the fence, and want to make a decision to go with one or the other forever more, until death do us ... well, at least for now. :)
Wed May 13 20:46:39 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: B looks bad, and isn't more readable.
Wed May 13 20:46:57 2009
[imud_code]
Kalinash@Fire and Ice: yeah, otherwise it's easy to confuse the parens
Wed May 13 20:47:00 2009
[imud_code]
Deklax@Evolution: spacing in D gives much more clear meaning of the mapping at a glance
Wed May 13 20:47:16 2009
[imud_code]
Lyeith@The New Horizon: at least its not E: function ( ( { " aaa " , " bbb " } ) )
Wed May 13 20:47:41 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: im turning off intercre forever, fascists
Wed May 13 20:48:09 2009
[imud_code]
Mecha@UOSSMUD: Treating if/foreach/etc. like a function, conceptually, is one form of consistency, so A and D can work fine together.
Wed May 13 20:48:47 2009
[imud_code]
Kalinash@Fire and Ice: foreach(string str in ({ "foo", "bar" }) ) { }
Wed May 13 20:48:51 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: I personally usually do A, D, except when it seems to look more legible some other way, but then it's not consistent. :( Starting to bug me to have to consider that factor..
Wed May 13 20:49:14 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: the reason for using function () vs builtin() in C was iirc the fact that function () will call function while function() might be overridden by #define.
Wed May 13 20:49:20 2009
[imud_code]
Deklax@Evolution: intercre if you are totally fascist you should definitally choose only A,C or B,D
Wed May 13 20:49:32 2009
[imud_code]
Kalinash@Fire and Ice: do what most admins do... pick which ever one pisses off the most people :)
Wed May 13 20:50:16 2009
[imud_code]
Lyeith@The New Horizon: okie araex, i hereby command u to use A n D.. lol, ok nvm =p
Wed May 13 20:50:49 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: lyeith can die in a watery grave for all i care >:(
Wed May 13 20:51:16 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: You seem to like things to die in other things. :P
Wed May 13 20:55:42 2009
[imud_code]
Kejope@Cookie Dough: Thanks for the responses. Now that I have a statistcally useful sampling of Internet opinion, I can safely make my decision.
Wed May 13 20:56:27 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: probably 98, i remember there was an upgrade sometime around 99
Wed May 13 20:57:22 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: or solan, as it was known before it became alsherok
Wed May 13 20:57:43 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: the "you say alsherok, you think samson" alsherok?
Wed May 13 20:58:41 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: a few people do. i was only a silent observer of some of most recent forum drama.
Wed May 13 20:59:03 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: iono, i haven't been on alsherok since '01 or something
Wed May 13 21:02:12 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: long story... and i joined the mudworld too late to understand half of the stuff.
Wed May 13 21:03:24 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: btw, intercre is not the best place for that kind of talk... can you add dchat to your list of intermud channels?
Wed May 13 21:04:33 2009
[imud_code]
Lyeith@The New Horizon: hmm dchat.. hold it.. gotta take a look at our ancient intermud daemon
Wed May 13 21:04:57 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: list: http://lpmuds.net/intermud.html
Wed May 13 21:05:07 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: but maybe don't risk breaking the chat_d ;)
Wed May 13 21:06:06 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: (i think that i3 chans are specified in chat_d not intermud_d in nmIV, as in DS)
Wed May 13 21:06:08 2009
[imud_code]
Lyeith@The New Horizon: :P its ancient software, and i've not looked at it before ^^
Wed May 13 21:06:37 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: iirc, alsherok also had a form of intermud chat
Wed May 13 21:12:26 2009
[imud_code]
Aidil@Way of the Force: used to be the other way around for a while since i3 didn't really support multiple routers.
Wed May 13 21:13:00 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: slacking on an ancient engine is quite satisfying
Wed May 13 21:13:18 2009
[imud_code]
Araex@The New Horizon: without the need to catch up on technology
Wed May 13 21:13:22 2009
[imud_code]
Aidil@Way of the Force: imc2 did that for much longer, but for a few years now i3 has had multiple routers.
Wed May 13 21:13:44 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: well, at least since 2005 relases of afkmud codebase, the i3 client was marked as disabled and unusable.
Wed May 13 21:13:55 2009
[imud_code]
Aidil@Way of the Force: it doesn't change much for the client anyway.. not the way the current routers do this.
Wed May 13 21:14:36 2009
[imud_code]
Raudhrskal@Dead Souls Dev: i wonder if that change in samson's mud was related to the death of *gjs...
Wed May 13 21:17:28 2009
[imud_code]
Tim@TimMUD: in 2004 I put out an IMC2 client in LPC, Samson didn't like I3 very much to begin with, but once it's possible to talk to LP muds without having to use I3, some of the incentive went away for supporting it I think
Wed May 13 21:18:42 2009
[imud_code]
Tim@TimMUD: started on May 1 2004 according to my comments, and I put it out after a week or so that it took to write and test it... it's already 5 years old
Wed May 13 21:20:38 2009
[imud_code]
Tim@TimMUD: I added partial support for IMC2 and Aberchat both to my I3 router like a month or two later; I really should polish those up sometime and finish it, bleh
Wed May 13 21:22:29 2009
[imud_code]
Aidil@Way of the Force: I should publish a usable version of my i3 router... sometime.
Wed May 13 21:51:46 2009
[imud_code]
Lyeith@The New Horizon: is someone free to do a channel emote? :P trying to make sense and fix a tiny annoyance in the intermud_d here
Wed May 13 22:02:15 2009
[imud_code]
Lyeith@The New Horizon: o stupid me.. svn commit wasn't done yet
Thu May 14 04:06:47 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Maybe I should open up 5 connections and spread my packets out amongst them.
Thu May 14 04:07:50 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Dunno. The router keeps filling my log up since it sends a packet for each mud.
Thu May 14 04:08:03 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I should block the router for flooding.
Thu May 14 04:10:07 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: It looks like its happening on channel-listen packets.
Thu May 14 04:10:48 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I send a channel_listen for each channel on daemon load since I don't know what state the channels were previously in.
Thu May 14 04:12:01 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: all righty lemme look at the router then
Thu May 14 04:12:23 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Sorry, my code translates - to _ so I can just call functions...
Thu May 14 04:13:08 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Unknown/invalid packet from router ({ "error", 5, "*i4", 0, "shadowmuddevdev", 0, "not-allowed", "Flood detected! Your packets will be temporarily ignored.", ({ "channel-listen", 5, "shadowmuddevdev", 0, "*i4", 0, "cleric", 0 }) })
Thu May 14 04:14:15 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: do whatever it is that causes the flood thingy
Thu May 14 04:15:22 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Well yeah, but reproducing it is another thing.
Thu May 14 04:16:25 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you blast out a ton of channel-removes
Thu May 14 04:16:40 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: stop doing that, you'll be fine, prolly
Thu May 14 04:17:27 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I see those... they are channels which I haven't registered...
Thu May 14 04:18:20 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Is there any chance you could batch your muds into less mudlist packets?
Thu May 14 04:19:04 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: are we agreed that your blasting of channel-removes is that cause for your flood warnings?
Thu May 14 04:19:36 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what problem does the current setup cause for you?
Thu May 14 04:21:10 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: In that my log is flooded while I get warnings that I'm flooding.
Thu May 14 04:21:39 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you're confusing me. why would fewer packets smallen your log?
Thu May 14 04:22:56 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: There would be... fewer packets in it...
Thu May 14 04:23:17 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you want incomplete information? please be explicit in what you want
Thu May 14 04:23:46 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Well as I read the spec mudlist packets can contain multiple muds
Thu May 14 04:24:42 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Nevermind anyway. I'm going to see if I can figure what is going on with the channels
Thu May 14 04:25:07 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if you tell me to never mind now i'm going to wind up ignoring you in general
Thu May 14 04:25:32 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if you just dismiss my full attention, which you have, you will deter me from helping you in the future
Thu May 14 04:26:06 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what is it exactly that you want from fewer packets?
Thu May 14 04:26:21 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: wont your logs be the same size, but with fewer entries?
Thu May 14 04:28:04 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Well I wanted to concentrate on the channel issue, but okay. I think that it just generates a bunch of unneeded traffic, sending a packet for each mud.
Thu May 14 04:28:35 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: right, but mudinfo in fewer packets still has that ton of traffic
Thu May 14 04:29:01 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: The logs are just part of the issue. The header information is processed and recorded redundantly.
Thu May 14 04:29:05 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it wouldnt do much to fix your fat logs
Thu May 14 04:29:30 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I don't know... I think its more 30-40 percent overhead.
Thu May 14 04:29:46 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: But anyway, I've registered my objection
Thu May 14 04:31:06 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Well, I was trying to cut this off since I realised it isn't productive :-P
Thu May 14 04:32:26 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the problem. it apparently bothers you, enough that yer getting huffy, so i'm trying to understand
Thu May 14 04:33:18 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Maybe I'm too vocal about minor irritants.
Thu May 14 04:33:49 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well i take router complaints seriously
Thu May 14 04:34:24 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i think that this particular issue might be something you have to get used to. not because "i say so" or because "i dont feel like fixing it"
Thu May 14 04:34:38 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but because the current behavior seems to work ok for a maximal number of clients
Thu May 14 04:34:49 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: changing router behavior is not a trivial undertaking
Thu May 14 04:35:18 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: given that the main problem seems to be that it bugs you but it's not a big deal, i'm inclined to leave it
Thu May 14 04:38:46 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: A more interesting question is why the mudlist_id remains constant over all those packets.
Thu May 14 04:39:02 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Is that intentional? The spec is very very loose.
Thu May 14 04:40:07 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i never paid much attention to that detail
Thu May 14 04:40:28 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: anything vague in the spec i dont see a point to i tend to disregard
Thu May 14 04:41:04 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Isn't there a consistency issue there? I mean, if my mud died while your mudlist packets are coming in then the list is invalid?
Thu May 14 04:41:59 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: pretty rare for a production mud to arbitrarily fail, and to do so right when another production mud is coming online
Thu May 14 04:42:30 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the answer is yes, the mud coming on line in that sweet spot moment might get wrong data on that one mud
Thu May 14 04:43:01 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I guess ideally with this system there would be a start and end packet to the mudlist.
Thu May 14 04:43:16 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: But I'm aware that there are lots of clients that must not be broken.
Thu May 14 04:44:12 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: after that down mud comes back up, it will get announced
Thu May 14 04:44:22 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and your old data will be confirmed as true!
Thu May 14 04:45:35 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: your hypothetical is, mud A goes down while mud B is getting an "up" packet for mud A
Thu May 14 04:47:08 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Oh, no. I was really just suggesting a general interuption in the middle of a mudlist update. The thing is, I have no way to tell when you are done sending the mudlist. Other than when I see a new mudlist_id.
Thu May 14 04:47:11 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: wtf are you fuckers talking about that justifies so much spam
Thu May 14 04:47:32 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well i'm telling you that the concern is moot
Thu May 14 04:48:10 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: an interruption of mud B's list is not possible just cuz mud A goes down
Thu May 14 04:48:33 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and if what you're saying is that mud A's list is interrupted, well, who cares, it's down
Thu May 14 04:49:07 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: as to mud B's opinion of mud A, as soon as the router notes it's down, it will queue a mudlist update for it for everyone
Thu May 14 04:49:27 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: so we're talking about maybe 2 seconds that mud B has wrong data about mud A
Thu May 14 04:53:23 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Okay. Lets say I connect. You send half a mudlist but my network dies for a month. When I come back online I have half a mudlist saved. I don't know if this is valid or not. I suppose you are sending the entire mudlist every time there is a change, which I think isn't what the spec is suggesting. I suppose I could empty the mudlist each time the id is incremented...
Thu May 14 04:53:54 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: why do i care you havent reset your old mudlist?
Thu May 14 04:54:38 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I think the spec is oriented towards mudlist updates while you are doing full lists.
Thu May 14 04:55:03 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Am I supposed to? It says you'll send me delete packets
Thu May 14 04:55:15 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if you were down for a month, its pretty much on you to police up your stale info, no?
Thu May 14 04:55:22 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: But you can't hope to, since you don't know what I have in my list.
Thu May 14 04:55:52 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: there were people who connected to my router with mudlists from gjs
Thu May 14 04:56:00 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: But why should I need to? You don't send updates at all. You dump the entire mudlist out each time, yeah?
Thu May 14 04:56:19 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and theyd complain that my router didnt clean up their mudlist from 3 years ago
Thu May 14 04:56:22 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: you're totally arguing for the sake of arguing, and they believe you have a valid complaint
Thu May 14 04:56:31 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i'm sorry but your stale mudlist is not my prob
Thu May 14 04:59:03 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: So I suppose the answer is to delete items from the list every week. And I suppose the router can't do better with the current protocol. I think its a protocol flaw though.
Thu May 14 04:59:40 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: under what circumstances is this an actual problem for an actual mud?
Thu May 14 05:00:27 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: it's a bug for all intents and purposes. your refusal to fix it because it's not that big of a deal doesn't change the fact that it's broken.
Thu May 14 05:00:47 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: not that i give a shit about what you're arguing about, but that's my view. ;)
Thu May 14 05:00:57 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what have i done to make you treat me so disrespectfully
Thu May 14 05:01:11 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: au contrair, i think that's probably one of the most respectful ways i've ever addressed you!
Thu May 14 05:01:17 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what dude was saying was "you should clean up my mudlist"
Thu May 14 05:01:29 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: I'm not demanding something to be fixed now...
Thu May 14 05:01:31 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what i was saying was "why is your old mudlist my problem?"
Thu May 14 05:01:57 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: it's not, but any information providing service should ensure that recipients of said information have up to date information
Thu May 14 05:02:16 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: if you provide said info, and that info changes, it's your responsibility to ensure that the changes are provided.
Thu May 14 05:02:20 2009
[imud_code]
Taffyd@Discworld: as a mud that connected with a 4 year old mudlist ;p, I quite like knowing that whatever is sent is current and wonderful.
Thu May 14 05:02:37 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: how was i supposed to know what to send them delete packets for?
Thu May 14 05:02:44 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: But Cratylus -can't- fix stale mudlists.
Thu May 14 05:03:05 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: a list from a different router isn't your problem
Thu May 14 05:03:20 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Despite the fact that you send full mudlists each time. Its really a protocol issue.
Thu May 14 05:03:25 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: neither is a stale mudlist from the same router from 3 months ago
Thu May 14 05:03:28 2009
[imud_code]
Ly'nx@shadowMUD Colony: this problem is solved by being omniscient.
Thu May 14 05:03:46 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and by logical progression, it's not my problem at all
Thu May 14 05:04:01 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: that's just a silly position as long as you maintain it.
Thu May 14 05:04:27 2009
[imud_code]
Ly'nx@shadowMUD Colony: i think yours is the only silly position, Salius
Thu May 14 05:04:33 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Okay. I'm switching screens. I've learned my lesson. No bitching on imud_code.
Thu May 14 05:04:41 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: i think you should shut the fuck up because nobody's talking to you
Thu May 14 05:04:54 2009
[imud_code]
Ly'nx@shadowMUD Colony: i think you should be less defensive, it means you're insecure
Thu May 14 05:04:58 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i think your concerns have been treated respectfully and with my full attention and regard ideysus
Thu May 14 05:05:13 2009
[imud_code]
Salius@Lost Legends: your name is retarded, your mud name is retarded, you have downs and you're adopted.
Thu May 14 05:05:16 2009
[imud_code]
Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if you feel you've been aggressed, i daresay welcome to the internet. it gets a lot rougher
Thu May 14 05:05:39 2009
[imud_code]
Ideysus@shadowmuddevdev: Yes. I have no personal complaints. I'm just sick of the topic :-P
Thu May 14 05:05:44 2009
[imud_code]
Ly'nx@shadowMUD Colony: once again, my statement stands. anyhow, this isn't my name or my mud, so your opinions are moot
Thu May 14 05:06:05 2009
[imud_code]
Ly'nx@shadowMUD Colony: if you quit trying to be so awesome, perhaps you could be
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