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Mon Nov  2 17:57:28 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: ima do it 
Mon Nov  2 17:57:32 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: No!  We love you! 
Mon Nov  2 17:57:50 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Come back to us! 
Mon Nov  2 17:59:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: u can do it too. that ds2.4.4 has mudos instead of fluffos 
Mon Nov  2 17:59:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: But I want to LIVE! 
Mon Nov  2 17:59:31 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: ((const char **)mem_block[A_STRINGS].block)[n] 
Mon Nov  2 18:00:34 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i wish i knew why this was necessary: (((x) + 7) & ~7) 
Mon Nov  2 18:03:03 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: omagawd is compilin 
Mon Nov  2 18:03:14 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: that rounds up to the nearest 8, doesn't it? 
Mon Nov  2 18:03:30 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: but why is it necessary? 
Mon Nov  2 18:03:33 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: WHY? 
Mon Nov  2 18:03:38 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice asplodes. 
Mon Nov  2 18:03:49 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: so many warnings... 
Mon Nov  2 18:04:00 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: well, that all depends upon the context and the relevance of 8-boundaries, doesn't it? 
Mon Nov  2 18:04:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: heh, compiling fluff with debug on spews tons of warnings 
Mon Nov  2 18:04:49 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: IT WORKED 
Mon Nov  2 18:04:53 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: if someone submitted fluffos to me for code review at work i'd have them fired. 
Mon Nov  2 18:04:57 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: driver:         ELF 64-bit MSB executable SPARCV9 Version 1, dynamically linked, not stripped 
Mon Nov  2 18:05:42 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: does it run? 
Mon Nov  2 18:10:12 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x00000001000dacf8 in epilog () at compiler.c:2299 2299            prog->function_table[i] = *FUNC(func_index_map[i]); 
Mon Nov  2 18:10:21 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: same crash 
Mon Nov  2 18:10:43 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: it *appears* that mem_block[1].block isn't as valid as it could be 
Mon Nov  2 18:11:05 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i totally didnt expect it to compile at all tbh 
Mon Nov  2 18:11:20 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: well, fluff is just a few patches ontop of mudos 
Mon Nov  2 18:11:43 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I'd say more than that.  some systems have been reworked significantly. 
Mon Nov  2 18:11:58 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: shhh, i'm making fun of it 
Mon Nov  2 18:12:30 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: dont let friends play with knives. 
Mon Nov  2 18:12:37 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: or knaves 
Mon Nov  2 18:15:13 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: what exactly are the deficiencies of fluff/mudos? I hear people complain about it, but I fail to see what it doesn't do. if there is a more efficient driver, why arent we using it? 
Mon Nov  2 18:15:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: who's complainin? 
Mon Nov  2 18:15:41 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: it doesn't run on Sparc64 under Solaris 
Mon Nov  2 18:15:53 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: The code is the stuff of nightmares. 
Mon Nov  2 18:15:57 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Otherwise it's fine :) 
Mon Nov  2 18:17:39 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: heh wonder if it's run 64 bit in windows 
Mon Nov  2 18:18:02 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: sure, as a 32 bit exe 
Mon Nov  2 18:18:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: unless your unixy stuff for windows is 64 bit now 
Mon Nov  2 18:18:21 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i didn't thing cygwin was 
Mon Nov  2 18:18:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: right, it runs fine as a 32 bit app in vista 64 
Mon Nov  2 18:18:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i'll have to see if mingw does 64 bit now 
Mon Nov  2 18:19:24 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: wewt 
Mon Nov  2 18:19:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: course theres no way im doing it anytime soon 
Mon Nov  2 18:19:55 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: btw spidermonkey looks purty cool 
Mon Nov  2 18:20:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i had to manhandle the mingw environment so hard for so long i dont even remember whatall i did 
Mon Nov  2 18:20:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: yeah, they did a good job with the API and docs 
Mon Nov  2 18:20:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and it looks pretty clean internally 
Mon Nov  2 18:22:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i suspect i would have better luck messing with it internally than fluff 
Mon Nov  2 18:23:24 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: does it has a lot of efuns? 
Mon Nov  2 18:23:51 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: crat's so cute 
Mon Nov  2 18:24:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: afaik no efuns :P 
Mon Nov  2 18:25:04 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: o. i prolly would not have very much luck messing with it internally then 
Mon Nov  2 18:26:03 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: the efuns in fluffos are actually problematic for me 
Mon Nov  2 18:26:28 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i wrote some. you can has 
Mon Nov  2 18:26:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: is gift 
Mon Nov  2 18:26:48 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i didnt mean that way :D 
Mon Nov  2 18:27:20 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i mean the interface to the vm. it's quite tightly coupled 
Mon Nov  2 18:27:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if you fiddle with the vm code you probably break most of the efuns 
Mon Nov  2 18:27:47 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: fiddle good then 
Mon Nov  2 18:28:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think spidermonkey is better in that regard 
Mon Nov  2 18:28:20 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but no has efuns :( 
Mon Nov  2 18:29:05 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i can live with that :P 
Mon Nov  2 18:29:45 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: I cant believe you corrected my grammar this morning. 
Mon Nov  2 18:30:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: lol wat 
Mon Nov  2 18:30:43 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: exactly. 
Mon Nov  2 19:36:41 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: ugh.  as always, the hard part of editing existing code is not the syntax of the language, it's the constructs that are already built up and mostly only make sense in the mind of the author. 
Mon Nov  2 19:41:30 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you goin thru my code? 
Mon Nov  2 19:42:41 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: string array x; int y; x=({"absurd","that","is"}); y=sizeof(x); write(x[random(y)]+" "+x[random(y)]+" "+x[random(y)]); 
Mon Nov  2 19:43:57 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: eval while(1) { reset_eval_cost(); } 
Mon Nov  2 19:44:10 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: naughty naughty 
Mon Nov  2 19:59:39 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or call kalinash(); 
Mon Nov  2 20:00:00 2009 [dchat] Sinistrad@Dead Souls Dev: call kalinash(925-555-8574); 
Mon Nov  2 20:01:00 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: 8675309 
Mon Nov  2 20:01:55 2009 [dchat] Sinistrad@Dead Souls Dev: People who get that number consider it a curse 
Mon Nov  2 20:03:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i didnt know the kalinash efun took arguments :( 
Mon Nov  2 20:03:57 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: kalinash takes arguments.. and causes them. 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:06 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: AIDIL IS ALIVE! 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: Aidil! 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:19 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: alive? 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:23 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: lies! 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:28 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: I've turned into a zombie. 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:33 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: we were beinning to wonder if you were one of the dutch tourists killed in the balooning accident in China 
Mon Nov  2 20:04:44 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: heh. 
Mon Nov  2 20:05:08 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: Crat 'pinged' me a little while ago, he knew :P 
Mon Nov  2 20:05:20 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: black ops 
Mon Nov  2 20:05:29 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: but anyway.. life has been busy.. more then the usual.. 
Mon Nov  2 20:05:41 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: and will be for a while to come. 
Mon Nov  2 20:05:42 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: what's her name? 
Mon Nov  2 20:05:50 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: work. 
Mon Nov  2 20:06:02 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: parents must have hated her :( 
Mon Nov  2 20:06:26 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force snickers. 
Mon Nov  2 20:06:34 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: I don't hate work tho :) 
Mon Nov  2 20:06:45 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: a perfect match! 
Mon Nov  2 20:06:56 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: well, no. 
Mon Nov  2 20:07:07 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: too much is too much. 
Mon Nov  2 20:07:09 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: even with things you love. 
Mon Nov  2 20:07:25 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: its worse actually. 
Mon Nov  2 20:07:39 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: too much of something you hate is something you'll notice easily. 
Mon Nov  2 20:07:45 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: not so for something you love. 
Mon Nov  2 20:08:01 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: too much scotch? inconceivable! 
Mon Nov  2 20:08:25 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: can't have too much scotch. it will knock you out before you get to that point. 
Mon Nov  2 20:08:36 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: safety mechanism! 
Mon Nov  2 20:08:43 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force nods. 
Mon Nov  2 20:08:51 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: I bet that is by design also. 
Mon Nov  2 20:09:08 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: some people have developed a tolerance 
Mon Nov  2 20:09:23 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: for work? 
Mon Nov  2 20:09:24 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Crat "iron liver" lyus 
Mon Nov  2 20:10:23 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: right. my raid5 array rebuilt itself.. reboot time. Lessee if suse hosed initrd again. 
Mon Nov  2 20:10:38 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: that doesn't sounds like bsd... :( 
Mon Nov  2 20:11:02 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: this time I have a spare initrd and proper grub config to use it tho :) 
Mon Nov  2 20:11:06 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: heh, no. 
Mon Nov  2 20:11:18 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: my bsd servers never had such issues. 
Mon Nov  2 23:29:13 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: crat, gdb -tui looks pretty hosed on your server :( 
Tue Nov  3 00:01:01 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west bursts into song. 
Tue Nov  3 02:08:36 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: good evening 
Tue Nov  3 02:08:46 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: g'evenin 
Tue Nov  3 02:59:45 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@Discworld: did you know the Irish have more drunks per capita than people? 
Tue Nov  3 03:00:00 2009 [dchat] Rotas@Discworld: surely drunks are people too. 
Tue Nov  3 03:00:22 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: is it St Patty's Day already!? 
Tue Nov  3 03:00:36 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@Discworld: nah, Family Guy was on. 
Tue Nov  3 03:18:57 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i love the plane landing in the all bottles 
Tue Nov  3 03:19:04 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and kathy irland 
Tue Nov  3 03:32:31 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: she'll be gorgeous when shes 90. 
Tue Nov  3 03:35:34 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: well crat, i'm to the point that i hate in debugging that issue... 
Tue Nov  3 03:35:54 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: when it crashes i enter the exactly line that causes the crase in the bugger and it succeeds 
Tue Nov  3 03:36:06 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: so now i'm trying to decipher sparc64 assembly :( 
Tue Nov  3 03:36:11 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i h8 u 
Tue Nov  3 03:36:38 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: if it's a compiler bug i will swear off open sores forever 
Tue Nov  3 03:39:06 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: whatever you do, dont pick at it. open sores will scar. 
Tue Nov  3 04:25:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: hmm 
Tue Nov  3 04:25:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: guess the standard ds 2.10 seems to run on the PS3 
Tue Nov  3 13:00:02 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: evening all. 
Tue Nov  3 13:01:55 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: mornin 
Tue Nov  3 13:02:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: hey Crat. No problems with ds 2.10 yet from PS3 land. 
Tue Nov  3 13:02:51 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: seems like that package works :P 
Tue Nov  3 13:03:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: admittedly i havent stress tested it or anything. 
Tue Nov  3 13:05:46 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: cool 
Tue Nov  3 13:05:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: not sure if I dare patch up Fedora 11 on this machine. I wonder if people have tested compatibility on a PS3. 
Tue Nov  3 13:05:59 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: not really my magic that the driver works on weird archs 
Tue Nov  3 13:06:13 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: whats the proc on the ps3 
Tue Nov  3 13:06:43 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: I think it's some powerpc variant as the main cpu with a complex cell engine 
Tue Nov  3 13:07:13 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: letme look hard to browse the web though since I am connected to a TV 
Tue Nov  3 13:07:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: and i only get 480 lines 
Tue Nov  3 13:07:47 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yeh wikipedia seems to mostly agree 
Tue Nov  3 13:08:57 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: ok good to know. 
Tue Nov  3 13:10:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: I was looking at the cell broadband engine SDK 3.1. but it seems to require I burn a cd iso guess I will have to pick up some blank ones tomorrow. 
Tue Nov  3 13:19:15 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: I guess if someone is looking for a powerpc proc it might have been a good choice 
Tue Nov  3 13:19:31 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead_Souls_silenus: but the PS3 slims can no longer run linux :( 
Tue Nov  3 17:52:25 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: ugh.  auto-updates are an abomination. 
Tue Nov  3 17:52:57 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I juuuust don't want network activity I didn't request.  And I sure don't want hard drive activity I didn't request. 
Tue Nov  3 18:01:35 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: interesting... the current crash i'm working on shows up as a SIGSEGV in gdb, but when i run it standalone it's a SIGBUS 
Tue Nov  3 18:02:00 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: which would explain why i can't find a valid SIGSEGV problem 
Tue Nov  3 18:02:10 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: memory alignment SUX 
Tue Nov  3 18:08:07 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: heisenberg-esque. 
Tue Nov  3 18:09:19 2009 [dchat] Khairn@Forgotten Skies: testing 
Tue Nov  3 18:10:36 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: passing, but just marginally 
Tue Nov  3 18:10:50 2009 [dchat] Khairn@Forgotten Skies: hehe thanks :P 
Tue Nov  3 18:11:33 2009 [dchat] Nafe@The Pussy Cat Forest: yeah thats a pretty poor test, it hardly came through, it took me 5 mins to tune into your signal 
Tue Nov  3 18:12:20 2009 [dchat] Khairn@Forgotten Skies: well I am new :P 
Tue Nov  3 18:43:04 2009 [dchat] Khairn@Forgotten Skies: woot its not loading up the web app -_- typical 
Tue Nov  3 18:44:07 2009 [dchat] Nafe@The Pussy Cat Forest: creweb cgi dirlist http  using mudconfig all need to be enabled 
Tue Nov  3 20:34:59 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Grrrr.... 
Tue Nov  3 21:25:30 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: ok crat, it works now 
Tue Nov  3 21:26:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: wewt 
Tue Nov  3 21:27:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: /home/kalinash/goldenturds 
Tue Nov  3 21:27:23 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: victory dances can commence 
Tue Nov  3 21:28:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i've got a mudlist now, but don't seem to receive or send channel messages 
Tue Nov  3 21:28:54 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i think that's an os issue 
Tue Nov  3 21:29:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: something screwy with the vm and the host 
Tue Nov  3 21:29:32 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: okey 
Tue Nov  3 21:30:38 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: let me know if you find any other problems ;) 
Tue Nov  3 21:30:51 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and try to ignore the backdoor hacks i added 
Tue Nov  3 21:31:29 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: hmm 
Tue Nov  3 21:31:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: not a vm thing 
Tue Nov  3 21:31:40 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: will have to check it after i vote 
Tue Nov  3 21:31:58 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: gotta go vote, get some booze and a new hard rive 
Tue Nov  3 21:32:52 2009 [dchat] Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: voted already...poll watching later. 
Tue Nov  3 21:40:46 2009 [dchat] Sinistrad@Dead Souls Dev: voting rawks 
Tue Nov  3 21:48:17 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i already voted 
Tue Nov  3 21:50:08 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: it's not as exciting when it's just mail in :( 
Wed Nov  4 01:49:51 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Ubuntu 9.10 is causing outrage and frustration, with early adopters wishing they'd stuck with previous versions of the Linux distro. Blank and flickering screens, failure to recognize hard drives, defaulting to the old 2.6.28 Linux kernel, and failure to get encryption running are taking their toll, as early adopters turn to the web for answers and log fresh bug reports in Ubuntu forums. 
Wed Nov  4 01:49:59 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: har har har Ubuntu has their Vista 
Wed Nov  4 02:13:28 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: a pity. 
Wed Nov  4 04:47:54 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Anyone here use tintin++ as their client, and emacs as their editor? 
Wed Nov  4 04:49:05 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Well, even if you don't, atleast show interest! 
Wed Nov  4 04:49:12 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: ;) 
Wed Nov  4 04:50:54 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Muhahaha 
Wed Nov  4 14:37:09 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: So the perl book I'm reading has a subtitle, "Making the easy easy and the hard possible" or thereabouts.  I think we need some better perl mottoes. 
Wed Nov  4 14:37:59 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: maybe "better than shell scripting... now with an extra shot of obfuscation." 
Wed Nov  4 14:38:41 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: or "your shift finger will never be the same." 
Wed Nov  4 14:42:56 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: "Perl: we wish we were a diamond in the rough!" 
Wed Nov  4 14:45:45 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Perl: Just Don't Bother 
Wed Nov  4 14:46:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Perl: Destroying Minds since 1993 
Wed Nov  4 14:46:40 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: hm.  doesn't have the bite I'm looking for.  you need to call its nose big or something. 
Wed Nov  4 14:46:41 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Perl: More Painful than a Kick to the Jimmies 
Wed Nov  4 14:47:56 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Perl: There Are Easier Ways to Beat Your Head Against the Wall 
Wed Nov  4 14:48:05 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: (there, i got a Wall reference in there) 
Wed Nov  4 14:48:30 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: excellent. 
Wed Nov  4 14:54:19 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: he especially needs smacked around for representing maps as ( key1, val1, key2, val2).   
Wed Nov  4 14:55:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i'd rather generate sed/awk commands from cobol than directly use perl again 
Wed Nov  4 14:56:35 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: perl syntax is just well 
Wed Nov  4 14:56:51 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: meh doesnt sound quite right 
Wed Nov  4 14:56:58 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i'd rather code in Whitespace using notepad 
Wed Nov  4 14:57:01 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: a mess maybe 
Wed Nov  4 14:57:03 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: hmmm.  select * from userporfile where username='bob'; 
Wed Nov  4 14:57:08 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: that ain't gonna work. 
Wed Nov  4 14:57:34 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: unless you named your table userprofile :) 
Wed Nov  4 14:58:24 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: Bjaren Stroustrup actually has a paper on whitespace operator overloading i think 
Wed Nov  4 14:58:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: er Bjarne even :P 
Wed Nov  4 14:59:12 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I didn't name the table at all.  and, no, "userporfile" doesn't work. 
Wed Nov  4 15:02:39 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: grrrr.  these passwords are not portable.  why would you have a different crypt on practically identical machines? 
Wed Nov  4 15:11:42 2009 [dchat] Hellmonger@Trilogy: if the os is the same, it will probably read any crypt 
Wed Nov  4 15:11:50 2009 [dchat] Hellmonger@Trilogy: at least Solaris and FreeBSD will. 
Wed Nov  4 15:12:02 2009 [dchat] Hellmonger@Trilogy: at least for /etc/passwd. 
Wed Nov  4 15:12:14 2009 [dchat] Hellmonger@Trilogy: also you can usually choose which crypt api to use. 
Wed Nov  4 15:16:03 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Yeah, can't you make pam use a different crypt? 
Wed Nov  4 15:18:46 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: this might sound like a stupid question but if the password is already crypted and crypts are generall one way functions how can different crypts "read" the crypt? 
Wed Nov  4 15:30:25 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: They can't. They generate a hash from the password you type in and compare that 
Wed Nov  4 15:30:53 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Well, actually I think there is a salt stored in /etc/shadow as well 
Wed Nov  4 15:32:02 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: So I think (and I may be wrong) when you create a password a salt is generated and it is put in the file along with crypt(password, salt) 
Wed Nov  4 15:32:51 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Then to check the password the salt is retrieved from the file and along with the password fed to crypt(password, salt). The returned hash is compared against the file. 
Wed Nov  4 15:33:25 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: And its all a waste of time because we have 'john' the password cracker program. :-) 
Wed Nov  4 15:51:30 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: hmm. only thing i can think of to fix hamlets problem is to annotate what kind of crypt function is being used in each case and call the right one. or just call all of them and compare the results and return ok if one matches (though that might be a bit shady) 
Wed Nov  4 16:16:24 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: ew.  permissive password verification! 
Wed Nov  4 17:07:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah shady at best :S 
Wed Nov  4 17:23:58 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: hmmm.  I need a nap.  someone needs to invent instantaneous transportation so I can nap at home. 
Thu Nov  5 00:36:19 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: water's heating!  food soonish. 
Thu Nov  5 01:59:37 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: good evening 
Thu Nov  5 01:59:45 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: D! 
Thu Nov  5 14:44:37 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: good morning 
Thu Nov  5 14:45:47 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: We control your mind. There is no such thing as net addiction. And these are not the droids you are looking for. 
Thu Nov  5 15:35:02 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: don't you love it when you can't seem to type your password right? 
Thu Nov  5 16:12:12 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: when you can type your password without thinking is when it inevitably expires 
Thu Nov  5 17:16:48 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I haven't a clue how often they require password changes here.  I certainly don't look forward to it, since I have like 10 individual passwords.  Hell, some of the dev servers have individual passwd files.  Not that I particularly use them. 
Thu Nov  5 17:17:36 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: you don't have an IT department that thinks they are the SS 
Thu Nov  5 17:18:33 2009 [dchat] Sinistrad@Dead Souls Dev: respect OTG 
Thu Nov  5 17:18:43 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: the guy made me come to *him* for one of the password setups.  beyond that, they seem pretty friendly :P 
Thu Nov  5 17:18:47 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: it's ITG now 
Thu Nov  5 17:18:54 2009 [dchat] Sinistrad@Dead Souls Dev: flip floppers 
Thu Nov  5 20:47:48 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: haha.  there's a field named "SEXFILTER" in this app. 
Thu Nov  5 20:48:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: filter out the sexless 
Thu Nov  5 20:55:51 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: guh.  I've got to stop getting the espressuchino or whatever it is I keep picking.  yeah, it's got goodly amounts of caffeine, but it doesn't taste very good. 
Thu Nov  5 20:58:17 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: coffee is evil! 
Thu Nov  5 20:58:28 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: coffee is good. 
Thu Nov  5 20:58:36 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: coffee is nectar of the gods 
Thu Nov  5 20:58:40 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: need more of it. 
Thu Nov  5 20:58:50 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: alcohol is the good stuff 
Thu Nov  5 20:58:56 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west grins. 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:04 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: at work? 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:12 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: why not? 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:14 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I'm trying *not* to sleep at work! 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:23 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: hence the coffee. 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:29 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: coffee and alcohol go together quite well. 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:33 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: sleep? try doing that at night :) 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:47 2009 [dchat] Aidil@Way of the Force: sleep is overrated. 
Thu Nov  5 20:59:49 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: sleeping?  no time! 
Thu Nov  5 21:00:40 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: get up at 6:00, get home at 7:00.  still gotta do laundry, help the kid with homework, order the stuff from amazon, etc! 
Thu Nov  5 21:01:10 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: and get pcre support in! 
Thu Nov  5 21:01:11 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: if I get any sleep, I don't get to play trivia.  that's just crazy. 
Thu Nov  5 21:01:48 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: yeah, I continue to bug Volothamp about that.  I should be able to have ot cleaned up in a few days after he gives it to me. 
Thu Nov  5 21:02:13 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I actually need it for a project of my own, so I'd like to see it _really_ in the driver rather than just in my buggy -alpha. 
Thu Nov  5 21:02:20 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: sell the kids on amazon 
Thu Nov  5 21:02:24 2009 [dchat] Wodan@Discworld: yay! afk :) 
Thu Nov  5 21:02:28 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: should free up a little bit of time. 
Thu Nov  5 21:03:04 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: the going to jail part will free up even more time. 
Thu Nov  5 21:03:44 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: can you program with a shiv on a prison wall? 
Thu Nov  5 21:03:54 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: make life simplier. when you get it nailed down to just 2 responsibilities per day, eat in 15 min and dont get shived in the yard, then youve got it. 
Thu Nov  5 21:31:54 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I took a picture because I thought it looked neat. 
Thu Nov  5 22:34:33 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: hum 
Thu Nov  5 22:34:37 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Anyone there? 
Thu Nov  5 22:34:46 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Nope. 
Thu Nov  5 22:34:49 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Bummer 
Thu Nov  5 22:35:03 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: How do I check the armor/protection my current gear provides? 
Thu Nov  5 22:36:28 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: I thought there was a built-in command for doing that? 
Thu Nov  5 22:37:55 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: isn't there a 'help noob' or something? 
Thu Nov  5 22:38:16 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: on dw-style libs it's usually 'sheet' or 'stats' or thereabouts. 
Thu Nov  5 22:38:18 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: have you checked the faq? 
Thu Nov  5 22:38:29 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: I read through the newbie manual xD 
Thu Nov  5 22:38:43 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: deadsouls right? 
Thu Nov  5 22:38:47 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: jah 
Thu Nov  5 22:40:08 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: dont see any commands for armor 
Thu Nov  5 22:40:41 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Huhm 
Thu Nov  5 22:40:49 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: I thought there was a command like 'body' but that showed things like 
Thu Nov  5 22:40:58 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: try equipment 
Thu Nov  5 22:41:09 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: body only shows limb damange 
Thu Nov  5 22:41:12 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Your head is barely protected. Your right leg is immune to all kinds of damage! 
Thu Nov  5 22:41:28 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Equipment just shows what you are wearing, not the effectiveness of what you are wearing 
Thu Nov  5 22:41:48 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: i searched command nothing about protection 
Thu Nov  5 22:41:58 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: least in the deadsouls i have floating around 
Thu Nov  5 22:45:52 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Mmk, thanks anyway. 
Thu Nov  5 22:46:00 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: yeah i dont see anything about armour display 
Thu Nov  5 22:46:14 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: you could always just make a command if you have access 
Thu Nov  5 22:46:24 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Tis my plan ^_^ 
Thu Nov  5 23:35:05 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: back 
Thu Nov  5 23:53:52 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: everyone will be pleased to know that the Xtramart is still selling 7.5 million gallons of milk for $1.99. 
Thu Nov  5 23:54:12 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: $1.99 is the normal price 
Thu Nov  5 23:57:34 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: for 7.5 million gallons? 
Fri Nov  6 00:08:07 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: oh, i thought they weree selling 7.5M worth of milk at $1.99 a gallon 
Fri Nov  6 00:08:29 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: meters? 
Fri Nov  6 00:08:40 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: million? 
Fri Nov  6 00:09:20 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: yeah,  7.5008E06 Gallon milk, $1.99 
Fri Nov  6 00:09:50 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: do you have to take it all at once? 
Fri Nov  6 00:09:58 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: in canada milk comes in bags 
Fri Nov  6 00:10:00 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I was too tired to go ask. 
Fri Nov  6 00:37:51 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Kalinash you liar. 
Fri Nov  6 00:37:57 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: There's no milk in canada! 
Fri Nov  6 00:38:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Moose milk 
Fri Nov  6 00:38:33 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Pssh 
Fri Nov  6 00:38:54 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: That substance isn't even allowed in the US. 
Fri Nov  6 00:39:04 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: The government is afraid we'll start saying 'eh'/ 
Fri Nov  6 00:39:20 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: It's so weird when your canadian friends say: Its 8 degrees outside! Why am I so cold? 
Fri Nov  6 00:40:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i don't actually believe in canada.. they're just unannexed americans 
Fri Nov  6 00:40:37 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Isn't everybody? 
Fri Nov  6 00:41:14 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Hehe 
Fri Nov  6 00:41:21 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: tru 
Fri Nov  6 00:41:25 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: I don't believe in anyone. They are all just annexed nobodies. 
Fri Nov  6 00:46:51 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: I enjoy LPC and all, but is it possible to also embed ANOTHER language to allow my helpers to create objects? 
Fri Nov  6 00:47:13 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Is there already a system in place, I guess is what I am saying. 
Fri Nov  6 00:48:25 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: crat has some programming tools 
Fri Nov  6 00:48:33 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: expect a faq link at any moment 
Fri Nov  6 00:48:49 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Expecting expecting expecting... lol I'll look it up meself. 
Fri Nov  6 00:51:58 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: hellow wat 
Fri Nov  6 00:52:33 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Hehe, I meant embedding a language such as Lua 
Fri Nov  6 00:52:40 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: oh 
Fri Nov  6 00:52:44 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: no chance there 
Fri Nov  6 00:52:46 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: no. if you want a lua mud, get a lua mud 
Fri Nov  6 00:52:57 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: the system is quite wrapped around the interpreter 
Fri Nov  6 00:55:23 2009 [dchat] Hensetsu@PAZiM: Mmk, thanks. 
Fri Nov  6 01:54:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you could write your own lua interpreter in lpc :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:00:38 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: aaactually, as long as a high degree of interaction wasn't expected with the additional language, I suppose you could use an interpreter for the other language as an external call and have it modify a database the mud also used.  hm.  sounds like a pain. 
Fri Nov  6 02:02:35 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: wonder if lua calls can be all rerouted to different functions 
Fri Nov  6 02:02:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: since they have that table stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:03:25 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: probably just time to develop lpcython :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:03:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i guess i'm not seeing the advantage of it 
Fri Nov  6 02:03:54 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or rubylpc :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:04:04 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I'm not sure there _is_ any advantage.  LPC is already fairly easy to do quick things in. 
Fri Nov  6 02:04:27 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i'd have to understand the benefit of lua on lpc to even begin slightly thinking about considering the possibility of how it might theoretically be done 
Fri Nov  6 02:04:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: probably not much of one unless for some reason you have to write in lua 
Fri Nov  6 02:05:15 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but since someone did ask :D. I guess DH would know 
Fri Nov  6 02:05:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: know what? 
Fri Nov  6 02:06:26 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: nope what? 
Fri Nov  6 02:06:34 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I always thought of LPC as pretty reasonably suited to be a scripting language in the first place.  cut out the void create() stuff and you've got pretty good text handling, for instance. 
Fri Nov  6 02:07:05 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: oh i agree 
Fri Nov  6 02:07:25 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it's kind of like well lets run ruby inside python or something of that nature. 
Fri Nov  6 02:07:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you have it even with the void create() stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:07:48 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but dunno if you have to code in x i guess maybe 
Fri Nov  6 02:08:00 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: ooo ruby on python on rails on lpc 
Fri Nov  6 02:08:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: sounds awesome 
Fri Nov  6 02:08:20 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: well, imbedding a ruby or python or whatever interpreter inside your application written in XXX so that you can let the user write scripts makes sense. 
Fri Nov  6 02:08:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but seriously 
Fri Nov  6 02:08:40 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: but LPC was _made_ to write those scripts, so imbedding something else seems redundant. 
Fri Nov  6 02:08:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i wonder how powerful lua's table mechanism is 
Fri Nov  6 02:09:05 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i'm sure that it's fabulously awesome 
Fri Nov  6 02:09:13 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it may be possible to do it significantly more easily than say ruby or python 
Fri Nov  6 02:09:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so in principle "maybe" if somene really wanted to it might be more feasible. 
Fri Nov  6 02:09:34 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: as fabulously awesome as perl?  I think not.  I need to get back to work on my new perl mottoes. 
Fri Nov  6 02:09:50 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: perl: i'm pretty sure i saw a script for that once 
Fri Nov  6 02:10:49 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: perl: there's more than one way to obfuscate it. 
Fri Nov  6 02:10:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: though for the kind of scripting for muds arguably LPC might be too general purpose. 
Fri Nov  6 02:11:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i.e. npc scripting stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:11:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: lpc is designed to do it all 
Fri Nov  6 02:11:36 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i like my car so much that i put a car in my car so i can drive while i drive 
Fri Nov  6 02:11:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: from socket level stuff all the way to 
Fri Nov  6 02:11:59 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: perl: ignoring undefineds since 1987. 
Fri Nov  6 02:12:01 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: up to scripting stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:12:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: script in scheme :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:12:30 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: perl: seriosuly that's not line noise 
Fri Nov  6 02:13:02 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I still like mine from the morning the best....  perl: your shift key will hate you. 
Fri Nov  6 02:16:18 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: mmmm.... perl 
Fri Nov  6 02:16:24 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: jam 
Fri Nov  6 02:17:05 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I'm really loathing trying to debug mod_perl.   tail -f <apache_log>    then refresh the webpage.  yich. 
Fri Nov  6 02:17:27 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and then the guy in the audience stands up and says yes actually, and i know because I WROTE PERL 
Fri Nov  6 02:17:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: there is also a mod_lisp rte? 
Fri Nov  6 02:17:38 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: mod_ruby_on_rails 
Fri Nov  6 02:17:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i heard ruby is awesome 
Fri Nov  6 02:18:11 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: isn't mod_lisp called Viaweb? 
Fri Nov  6 02:18:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: for that sort of thing 
Fri Nov  6 02:18:14 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: no idea.  I only know about perl.  I do shell scripting when required, python by choice, and now perl by profession. 
Fri Nov  6 02:18:23 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I already consider that a couple too many scripting languages to know. 
Fri Nov  6 02:18:37 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: mod_django 
Fri Nov  6 02:19:22 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: mod_ern 
Fri Nov  6 02:19:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: mod_erlang 
Fri Nov  6 02:19:24 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: I used to work with the dood who wrote that one perl book 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:12 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: Larry Wall?  :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: perl makes satan look like a saint 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:15 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: mod_ular 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the book with the camel in front? 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: how DO they pick the animal? 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:44 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: or the alpaca? 
Fri Nov  6 02:20:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: post_mod_ern? 
Fri Nov  6 02:21:54 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: wasn't that how Larry Wall characterized perls syntax? 
Fri Nov  6 02:22:35 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: it really helps to learn that he was thinking of $calars and @rrays. 
Fri Nov  6 02:23:43 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: which one is this? http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596002411/ 
Fri Nov  6 02:23:48 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i wonder how you define a modern programming language let alone a post modern one 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:10 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: camel 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:11 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: a post modern one would be lolcat 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:27 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: stupid and self-referential and pointless 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:29 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: a modern language is one that lets you get stuff done 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:39 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: lolcode is awesome 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:46 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: a modern one has clean lines and its form follows its function 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:53 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: very bauhaus 
Fri Nov  6 02:24:57 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: LPC != Modern 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:24 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: post-modern is BASIC.net. 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:26 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west nods. 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i thought most ppl use this one 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:44 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: I'm just saying 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:46 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: smart people avoid perl 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: ah k 
Fri Nov  6 02:25:54 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: that's the dood I did the thing with 
Fri Nov  6 02:26:02 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i didnt know there was another one :D 
Fri Nov  6 02:26:08 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: which one? 
Fri Nov  6 02:26:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: o'reilly has a perl in a nutshell as well as the programming perl thingy 
Fri Nov  6 02:26:48 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: perl in a durian shell 
Fri Nov  6 02:26:52 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well there's a difference between post-modern and baroque 
Fri Nov  6 02:27:28 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: baroque has all sorts of unnecessary flibbertigibbets but makes some sense 
Fri Nov  6 02:27:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i thought modern vs. postmodern = some art thing.... what does it have to do with programming languages. 
Fri Nov  6 02:27:46 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: this is the one I was issued at work:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596101058/stonehengeconsul 
Fri Nov  6 02:27:50 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: programming is art 
Fri Nov  6 02:28:04 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but programming languages = formal theory 
Fri Nov  6 02:28:06 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I'm not thrilled with the parts it skips. 
Fri Nov  6 02:28:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: oh schwartz 
Fri Nov  6 02:28:44 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: like the big disclaimer saying, "you know, you really should avoid perl altogeter" 
Fri Nov  6 02:28:51 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i think that the elegance of design elements should be obvious in computer languages 
Fri Nov  6 02:28:57 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: didnt he get in trouble for something? 
Fri Nov  6 02:29:05 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's not ones and zeroes 
Fri Nov  6 02:29:18 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: in that case C# is the greatest programming language every devised 
Fri Nov  6 02:29:19 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it is necessarily an artful abstraction from ones and zeros 
Fri Nov  6 02:29:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and therefore its desing is absolutely subject to interpretation in the context of design 
Fri Nov  6 02:29:46 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: Kal, there is absolutely nothing elegant about throwing everything you can think of into a programming language. 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:00 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: ah lpc 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:02 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: C++ has done well for itself 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:05 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: as has Java 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:15 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: inbedding sql into a high-level general purpose language is... what did Taffyd call it the other day?  A solution looking for a problem. 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:22 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: schwartz convicted and later cleared for hacking 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:35 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: although i'd rather run amok in a texas military installation than use java 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but for 12 years he was a convicted felon or something. 
Fri Nov  6 02:30:57 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the simplest thought like the concept of the number 1 has an elaborate logical underpinning. the brain has its own language for testing the structure and consistency of the world 
Fri Nov  6 02:31:08 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i once used a language that had data sets as a data type and you could call stored procedures like C functions 
Fri Nov  6 02:31:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i guess i dont think of PL's when i think of art 
Fri Nov  6 02:31:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that 
Fri Nov  6 02:31:46 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: is why you fail 
Fri Nov  6 02:31:48 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: lol 
Fri Nov  6 02:31:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but then some ppl define it more broadly 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:05 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: there is a lot of art in beautiful source 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:07 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: to me it's application of theory for the most part 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:13 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: sure 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and i don't mean perl poems 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but that's different 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:31 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: programming languages themselves to me are kind of ho hum. 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:38 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: so are brocks 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:40 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and mortar 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:42 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: bunch of geeks 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:43 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: just some aspects of formal language theory 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: "applied" 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:54 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: buildings are meant to contain objects and people 
Fri Nov  6 02:32:59 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: where is the art? 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:07 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: some buildings are meant to kill people 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:21 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and yet, despite being made of the most mundane stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: bricks and mortar to me a lot of times there isn't that much artistic expression in it 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and having the most prosaic purpose 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:36 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: there is "architecture" 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: unless you work at it 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:47 2009 [dchat] Zaphod@Dead Souls Dev: just 'cause you lack the ability to see art in the mundane doesn't mean the mundane is not art 
Fri Nov  6 02:33:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yep you could just call that engineering too 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:05 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and if it WERE "just" engineering, you'd be right 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:10 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but you're not 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:13 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: cuz it aint 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:32 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: When you have learned to snatch the error code from the trap frame, it will be time for you to leave. 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i would argue a lot of times you are just engineering :D 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:52 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: then you are not yet ready 
Fri Nov  6 02:34:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well sort of like the toilet seat thing 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:04 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: rather toilet 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:12 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: The Tao gave birth to machine language. Machine language gave birth to the assembler. 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages. 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: who was that famous artist who stuck that in an art exhibit? 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:19 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao. 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:25 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.  
Fri Nov  6 02:35:39 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you can argue that sure 
Fri Nov  6 02:35:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but to me you can also exaggerate it's importance 
Fri Nov  6 02:36:05 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: The wise programmer is told about Tao and follows it. The average programmer is told about Tao and searches for it. The foolish programmer is told about Tao and laughs at it. 
Fri Nov  6 02:36:07 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao. 
Fri Nov  6 02:36:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well i am talking about PL design 
Fri Nov  6 02:36:37 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not programming per se as well 
Fri Nov  6 02:36:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think there is art in programming 
Fri Nov  6 02:36:57 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: You must sacrifice for C! 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but the constructs of a programming language especially these days are pretty fixed 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:08 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: o rilly 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:09 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you have a vocabulary of ideas 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: which gets permuted into a lot of languages 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:24 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or selected from 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:40 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yknow, even in shakespeares time people were inclined to say there was nothing new under the sun 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: the number of truly new innovations are somewhat limited 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:51 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am quite serious :D 
Fri Nov  6 02:37:59 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: funny that the one constant seems to be the denial of the existence of innovation 
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