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Sat Oct 31 17:24:13 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: to go back 3 pages? 
Sat Oct 31 17:24:20 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: without having to wait for the two in the middle to load? 
Sat Oct 31 17:24:23 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: use the drop box next to the back/soward arrows 
Sat Oct 31 17:24:25 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: forward 
Sat Oct 31 17:24:55 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: it's more obvious than a context menu too 
Sat Oct 31 17:25:05 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: another FF fail 
Sat Oct 31 17:25:09 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: kthxbai 
Sat Oct 31 17:26:22 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: erm.  does it list forward or backward? 
Sat Oct 31 17:26:45 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: both 
Sat Oct 31 17:26:55 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and it shows you which you're currently on 
Sat Oct 31 17:27:05 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: it's the shiznit 
Sat Oct 31 17:27:25 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: when was the last time you used IE? :) 
Sat Oct 31 17:27:55 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: uh.  when was the last time Windows bothered to load Explorer on this machine?  Oh yeah, months ago. 
Sat Oct 31 17:28:11 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: you can't browse files? 
Sat Oct 31 17:28:14 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: my background is pretty.  and the mouse-pointer is well-formed.  doesn't really help me read email, though. 
Sat Oct 31 17:28:36 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: no... I have no desktop.  it doesn't bother to load. 
Sat Oct 31 17:28:44 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: just a background and a pointer. 
Sat Oct 31 17:28:54 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: wow, how did you do that? 
Sat Oct 31 17:29:01 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I did nothing.  Windows updated itself. 
Sat Oct 31 17:29:10 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: ME? 
Sat Oct 31 17:29:11 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: to better qualitai. 
Sat Oct 31 17:29:22 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: XP. 
Sat Oct 31 17:29:31 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: oh, there's your problem 
Sat Oct 31 17:29:41 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Try Win7! 
Sat Oct 31 17:30:08 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I have to admit that Vista has caused me far less problems.  The audio driver chews the hard drive with empty log entries.  Otherwise, Vista seems solid. 
Sat Oct 31 17:30:49 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Win7 is like Vista after Jenny Craig and a perscription of Viagra 
Sat Oct 31 17:31:05 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: so, in other words, it'll chew the hard drive faster? 
Sat Oct 31 17:31:22 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and longer 
Sat Oct 31 17:31:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and harder 
Sat Oct 31 17:31:32 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I tried everything I could find on the internet.  nothing would make it stop logging. 
Sat Oct 31 17:31:44 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: but that's really up to the drver manu 
Sat Oct 31 17:32:06 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: yes, but it's one of ye olde standard generic audio devices. 
Sat Oct 31 17:32:40 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: provided by some oem 
Sat Oct 31 17:32:43 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I bet it has one of those "certified" stickers on it, too. 
Sat Oct 31 17:33:04 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: even the in box drivers are provided by the oems 
Sat Oct 31 17:33:08 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: regardless.  my review of Vista is positive. 
Sat Oct 31 17:33:25 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: that boggles my mind 
Sat Oct 31 17:34:06 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: yes, I understand that.  not that it's the case here, but you can't say, "Our operating System is COMPLETELY awesome.  It's just that all the software on it sucks and all the hardware that goes with it malfunctions."   
Sat Oct 31 17:34:12 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: well, actually you can.  You get BeOS. 
Sat Oct 31 17:34:34 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: so you have to ask yourself... do you want to be part of developing the next BeOS? 
Sat Oct 31 17:34:42 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i said ie8 was awesome 
Sat Oct 31 17:35:14 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: it boggles your mind that my review of Vista is positive? 
Sat Oct 31 17:36:16 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: yeah... no one actually likes vista 
Sat Oct 31 17:37:02 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I dislike Microsoft tactics on a regular basis.  And I dislike many design decisions.  But I'm also willing to be fair.  Vista crashes on me no more often than Linux, and the problems I have with them in terms of software and usability are comparable.  So it wouldn't make sense for me to call it "horrible". 
Sat Oct 31 17:37:19 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: hell, I tried to install pidgin on linux yesterday and failed miserably.  It installed painlessly on XP at work. 
Sat Oct 31 17:38:36 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: the difference, in my mind, is that with linux I at least have a chance of fixing whatever problems there are myself.  Windows: not so much. 
Sat Oct 31 17:44:06 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: is it actually called Windows 7?  
Sat Oct 31 17:46:18 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: you don't get out much do you? :P 
Sat Oct 31 17:47:34 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: no, I'm just having math issues. 
Sat Oct 31 17:47:49 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: 3, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7 
Sat Oct 31 17:47:59 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: 3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,     9 
Sat Oct 31 17:48:03 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: then don't look at the actual version numbers 
Sat Oct 31 17:48:16 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: and your timeline isn't quite right 
Sat Oct 31 17:48:41 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: that's just because only 1 in 2 Windows OSes are actually adopted.  Hard to keep track. 
Sat Oct 31 17:48:43 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Win 1, 2, 3, 95, 98, 98SE, ME.  Thus ends the "MS-DOS" based Windows. 
Sat Oct 31 17:49:25 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: NT 3.1, 3.51, 4.0, Win2k (5.0), XP (5.1), Vista (6.0), 7 (6.1) 
Sat Oct 31 17:49:31 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Thus continues the NT kernel line 
Sat Oct 31 17:50:09 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: wasn't there an XP SE? 
Sat Oct 31 17:50:28 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: There are 3 Service Packs for XP 
Sat Oct 31 17:50:30 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: so windows 7 is really Windows 6.1? 
Sat Oct 31 17:50:42 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Most people consider XP SP2 to be the minimum supported XP version 
Sat Oct 31 17:50:52 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: as far as the kernel version, yes 
Sat Oct 31 17:51:10 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I never really saw why numbering was abandoned in the first place.  The progression of numbers suggests that the new one is "more progressed" and "higher".  Seems a good thing to me. 
Sat Oct 31 17:51:38 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: one must never question the minds of marketing less ye are drawn into the abyss of madness 
Sat Oct 31 17:51:57 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: although.... naming it 7 begs the question... what happens when there's a *real* 7.0?  Do you call it 8?  Or 7.5 or something? 
Sat Oct 31 17:52:22 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: so far the next version is Windows 8, but until marketing decides you can never be sure 
Sat Oct 31 17:52:45 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: then there needs to be a LOT of work on the kernel to get it up to standards, huh!? 
Sat Oct 31 17:53:12 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: lol 
Sat Oct 31 17:53:40 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: we release new versions every weekend :P  Sometimes more often if there's a bug. 
Sat Oct 31 17:54:23 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: major update every 6 weeks or so. 
Sat Oct 31 17:54:38 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: gotta love and hate that 
Sat Oct 31 17:56:30 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: well, the software isn't for sale, so I guess there's no concern with that part. 
Sat Oct 31 17:57:22 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: well, when i worked on an msn property people would get the mentality that 'it's a web site, we can update it easily, it's not like boxed software' which would lead to less than brilliant decisions being made 
Sat Oct 31 18:10:36 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west nods. 
Sat Oct 31 18:10:49 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I'm too new to know how far that goes here. 
Sat Oct 31 18:12:19 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: msn makes money on advertising only?  Or are there pay-services? 
Sat Oct 31 18:15:43 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: I love that.  "Yahoo mail has not been tested with your operating system."   What, because Linux is so new and everything? 
Sat Oct 31 22:48:58 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Windows versions let you know how close to being "complete and useable" it is:  So, 1 is 1%, then 2%, then 3%.  Then they thought it would look really cool to be 95%, but then progress was slow, 98% SEE?  Then they just said, MEH, forget it.  Then XP means X Percent, so you don't really know what the progress is.  Vista came along to say that "We can see our way clearly now."  The result is that they finally realized that they never actually made it past 7%.  Oh well!  Maybe next year will be the year of Windows on my Desktop -- not! :) 
Sat Oct 31 22:49:19 2009 [dchat] Pso@Discworld: when do you get fonts? 
Sat Oct 31 22:49:55 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Wow, and I thought my comment was going to look odd, being late and all. :P 
Sat Oct 31 22:51:23 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: There are tons of free fonts, many of which I have downloaded, just in case, you know.  But I only every really use two or three of them. :/ 
Sun Nov  1 00:11:17 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: is this thing on? 
Sun Nov  1 00:11:23 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: yep 
Sun Nov  1 00:11:31 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: nice, hello 
Sun Nov  1 00:11:39 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: heya 
Sun Nov  1 00:13:06 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: how are you? 
Sun Nov  1 00:13:17 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: doing well, just installed this in a fit of nostalgia 
Sun Nov  1 00:13:21 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: how are you? 
Sun Nov  1 00:13:36 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: doing okay... trying to learn LPC :p 
Sun Nov  1 00:14:14 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: cool, how's it coming? 
Sun Nov  1 00:14:52 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: it would be a lot easier if I could understand tech-speak :p I'm having to learn mainly through trial-and-error 
Sun Nov  1 00:15:41 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: other than that though, I think I'm doing... okay? lol 
Sun Nov  1 00:15:44 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: :) anything confusing you right now? i haven't done lpc in forever but i program in lots of different languages, maybe i can help 
Sun Nov  1 00:15:52 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: hehe 
Sun Nov  1 00:16:46 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: right now, I'm trying to figure out how to use sscanf in another function 
Sun Nov  1 00:18:31 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: what are you trying to accomplish with it? 
Sun Nov  1 00:20:55 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: it was recommended to me by a wiz here when I asked how I could separate their input into two parts... basically, I want them to be able to type: "spraypaint <item> <color>", and I want my code to be able to distinguish between <item> and <color> 
Sun Nov  1 00:21:55 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: i think what you need is to define two string variables, item and color, and do sscanf(player_input, "spraypaint %s %s", item, color); 
Sun Nov  1 00:22:27 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: you could wrap it in an if to test if that command was the one sent 
Sun Nov  1 00:23:35 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: h'mm, that might work, I'm trying it now. Thanks! :) 
Sun Nov  1 00:23:40 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: sure 
Sun Nov  1 00:25:11 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: so has installing this brought back any old memories? ;) 
Sun Nov  1 00:25:29 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: your if would be if(sscanf(input, "spraypaint %s %s", item, color) == 2) 
Sun Nov  1 00:25:38 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: because it looks like sscanf returns the number of arguments it placed 
Sun Nov  1 00:25:42 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: yes a bit :) 
Sun Nov  1 00:26:08 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: ahha! I -almost- got it right, I just had one equal sign instead of two 
Sun Nov  1 00:27:26 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: ah yes, i've spent much time debugging one equal sign vs two :) 
Sun Nov  1 00:27:44 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: i'm using the dead souls mudlib now, is that the one you have installed too? 
Sun Nov  1 00:29:54 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: no, I think we're running a version of Nightmare... I can't find find out where it says it for sure 
Sun Nov  1 00:30:36 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: ah ok.. there's a lot of stuff here! almost too much :) i'd like to find a more minimal lib, but one based on decent architecture... the lpmud lib is pretty crap :) 
Sun Nov  1 00:32:36 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: *nods* yeah, there's a lot of help here, I'm just -really- bad with things that tell and don't show... I'm not that great at understanding some of the more advanced stuff, and I'd consider sscanf pretty advanced (at least for me :p). And I think it's okay, I haven't ran into anything I couldn't do, just stuff I didn't know -how- to do 
Sun Nov  1 00:33:03 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: yeah, there's some great resources on the web too i found 
Sun Nov  1 00:33:36 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: have you done much programming outside of LPC? 
Sun Nov  1 00:34:29 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: nope... only things I've messed with were html and css... I tried c++ one time, I couldn't get past the third thing this giant book told me to do 
Sun Nov  1 00:34:48 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: I also spent about 2 hours with some really simple form of basic, but I don't think that really counts, lol 
Sun Nov  1 00:35:18 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: (and when I say giant, I mean this book was huge! It had to have been at least 500 pages long) 
Sun Nov  1 00:37:00 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Funny, when you said giant, I pictured something over 1500 or even 2000 pages. :P 
Sun Nov  1 00:37:45 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: *chuckles* this book, while only 500 pages, couldn't fit on a bookshelf because it was too tall 
Sun Nov  1 00:38:09 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: and it might've been more... I don't know, take the average harry potter book and multiply the thickness by about 1.5 
Sun Nov  1 00:38:20 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: hehe 
Sun Nov  1 00:38:25 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: hi kejope 
Sun Nov  1 00:41:02 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Hi!  And welcome back to MUDding! :) 
Sun Nov  1 00:41:12 2009 [dchat] Dinchak@Dead_Souls_dinchak: thank you :) 
Sun Nov  1 12:13:42 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: haha.  best review ever!:  I think this is a good CD. My dad bought it for me and then told me to get him a beer. He likes beer but it makes him sleepy. He sings the Mommy song and laughs to me. 
Sun Nov  1 13:01:58 2009 [dchat] Ninja@Dead Souls Dev: You have some strange players on your mud indeed. 
Sun Nov  1 14:56:15 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: it was an Amazon review. 
Sun Nov  1 16:12:18 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Super Chameleon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMT1FLzEn9I 
Sun Nov  1 17:06:58 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I haven't seen Raudhrskal lately.  Is he just nose-to-the-books, or is he working on some cool, top-secret, fluffos-driver-gets-unicode-support project? :) 
Sun Nov  1 17:07:35 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: he's away for a while 
Sun Nov  1 17:07:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: rl 
Sun Nov  1 17:08:04 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: As long as he is coming back, then Cool! :) 
Sun Nov  1 17:08:33 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I thought fluff already had unicode support? 
Sun Nov  1 17:09:05 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Or does its unicode support just consist of 'I blindly pass out the utf8 data'? :-) 
Sun Nov  1 17:10:55 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: When I try to say text with unicode, I just get an error, "What did you want to say?"  Maybe I should do some more searching.  My [likely flawed] memory was that it only dealt with 8-bit. 
Sun Nov  1 17:15:39 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: You are using utf8, yes? 
Sun Nov  1 17:16:10 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I can't imagine it handling other encodings. 
Sun Nov  1 17:16:49 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Yes.  If I am at terminal prompt, I can type Chinese characters fine. :) 
Sun Nov  1 17:19:15 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I haven't looked into the unicode support in quite a long time.  If you say it is there now, I believe you. :)  I will look for it in a bit. 
Sun Nov  1 17:19:47 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Well, I'm not sure how complete it is, but I know they do have some support. :-) 
Sun Nov  1 17:29:17 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Sorry, I remembered my unicode grievance now:  TinyFugue does not support it.  Ooh, that burns me. :( 
Sun Nov  1 17:29:58 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Yep. :-( 
Sun Nov  1 17:30:22 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: It does seem to pass though the characters though. 
Sun Nov  1 17:30:58 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I have a suspicion there is a bug with it though. After a lot of output with utf8 in a single buffer the scrollback gets shorter and shorter. 
Sun Nov  1 17:31:11 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: World, not buffer... 
Sun Nov  1 17:31:20 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Test at passing through:  "e 
Sun Nov  1 17:31:38 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: This is a£ sign. 
Sun Nov  1 17:31:58 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Even as I try to just type the characters here, even before sending, it spits garbage at me. :( 
Sun Nov  1 17:32:43 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Test paste: "e 
Sun Nov  1 17:33:42 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I see "e, but when I do £ I see an actual pound sign. 
Sun Nov  1 17:34:04 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Testing the B, # combo: "B#" 
Sun Nov  1 17:34:14 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I think I misunderstood you. :> 
Sun Nov  1 17:34:38 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: and that "e should have been "nihao" . . . but in characters. 
Sun Nov  1 17:35:01 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I doubt my font'll do chinese. :-) 
Sun Nov  1 17:35:28 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I don't see your pound sign either, only a B and a # together. 
Sun Nov  1 17:37:28 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Though it looks like its being served up by apache... 
Sun Nov  1 17:39:15 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I have TinyFugue 5.0 beta 8, vanilla-compiled in Ubuntu.  I do see your sign on the web.  And I do see a block symbol in my local dchat log file.  Hmm. 
Sun Nov  1 17:39:36 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Give me a moment.  I am going to relogin here with telnet instead of tf.. 
Sun Nov  1 17:39:53 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: tf 5.0 beta 8 here too. I'm using debian so we probably have the same package. 
Sun Nov  1 17:40:15 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Try to send me your pound character again now, please.  (ugh, I hate telnet)[D! 
Sun Nov  1 17:40:38 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: This is a pound: £ 
Sun Nov  1 17:41:05 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: (if you wget it and view it in your terminal that is. 
Sun Nov  1 17:41:16 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Yup, I see your pound.  So, you can see your pound just fine in tf, eh?  I am getting the text file now. 
Sun Nov  1 17:42:02 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I can, yes. But tf doesn't seem to know the pound sign is multibyte; if I delete it it breaks the display of the input buffer. 
Sun Nov  1 17:42:10 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I can see the utf file fine in my terminal.  I like that test page. :) 
Sun Nov  1 17:42:52 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I downloaded the source for tf and compiled.  Did you download that or a debian package? 
Sun Nov  1 17:42:53 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: If only there was wider client/font support... 
Sun Nov  1 17:43:20 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I'd love to be able to use runes or something within the mud for languages. 
Sun Nov  1 17:43:22 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I do see the package in the repository list. 
Sun Nov  1 17:43:47 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: "Version: 5.0beta8-4 
Sun Nov  1 17:43:59 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Standard debian package. 
Sun Nov  1 17:44:36 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Ooh!  A "-4" !!  *drool* hehe  I will now have to test that. :) 
Sun Nov  1 17:45:34 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I doubt there are any unicode specific patches. It behaves like any package that just blindly outputs 8bit characters. 
Sun Nov  1 17:46:43 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Sure, but at least it spits them out for you.  For me, it just dry-chokes.  If you are in a desert, spit is more useful than choking. :> 
Sun Nov  1 17:47:50 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: OK, testing again: "e 
Sun Nov  1 17:47:54 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: :( 
Sun Nov  1 17:48:29 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Actually, the version still shows without the -4.  OK, more web research is in order.. 
Sun Nov  1 17:49:30 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: "/listvar lang" == "en_GB.UTF-8" 
Sun Nov  1 17:50:07 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 
Sun Nov  1 17:51:13 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Changed to yours.  Test:  " 
Sun Nov  1 17:51:21 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Nope. 
Sun Nov  1 17:51:24 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: SHouldn't make a difference. 
Sun Nov  1 17:51:29 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I agree. 
Sun Nov  1 17:52:29 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Test:  "B#" 
Sun Nov  1 17:52:32 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Nope. 
Sun Nov  1 17:56:12 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Hmm. 
Sun Nov  1 17:56:17 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: So, you are using the offical Debian current package?  I find this link: 
Sun Nov  1 17:56:21 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I am. 
Sun Nov  1 17:56:45 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Which seems to indicate a 4.0 version of tf.. ? 
Sun Nov  1 17:57:34 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Thats ancient. I've been running this version since it was in experimental. I think its through to testing now, perhaps unstable though 
Sun Nov  1 17:58:22 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Oh, I found it. 
Sun Nov  1 17:58:36 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: On that page, it references (on the right side) a tf5 package. :) 
Sun Nov  1 18:26:14 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Adds a comment onto https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1701734&group_id=186112&atid=915975 just to keep it on their radar :-) 
Sun Nov  1 18:29:46 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: That was cool.  It updated with your comment in real-time, while I was looking at the site. :) 
Sun Nov  1 18:31:12 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I am comparing the changes made for the -4 version.  There are a LOT of changes made, for something that is a -4 version of an eight beta! 
Sun Nov  1 18:31:38 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Huge swaths of new code.. 
Sun Nov  1 18:33:16 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Hmm. Interesting. Particularly interesting since tf is infrequently updated now. 
Sun Nov  1 18:34:08 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Fear the awesome might of the -4. :> 
Sun Nov  1 18:36:21 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Actually, I realize that I need to get the -1 - -3 versions to properly see what the newest changes are. :> 
Sun Nov  1 18:36:26 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Little in the changelog. 
Sun Nov  1 18:36:36 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Nope. :/ 
Sun Nov  1 18:41:37 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/t/tf5/  Looks even weirder, like the -4 part is just sequential and unrelated to the original version number.  Apparently, Russ Allbery is the new maintainer?  http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=rra%40debian.org  (search for tf5 near the bottom) 
Sun Nov  1 18:48:21 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Test with -4 version: "B#" and "e 
Sun Nov  1 18:50:29 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Even the version number displays, still, as "TinyFugue version 5.0 beta 8" 
Sun Nov  1 18:52:16 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Its probably just debian policy related changes. 
Sun Nov  1 19:00:03 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I retract a thought from earlier, made in stupidity:  There are not huge swaths of code added to the -4 version.  Somehow I mistyped my hashes and was looking at commits further apart.  Quite embarrassing. 
Sun Nov  1 19:01:11 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: There are actually only small changes made (but still obviously useful ones), largely relating to SSL support and compiling. 
Sun Nov  1 19:06:55 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: At least I got to add a 5.0beta7 to my version collection! :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:09:47 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Can you do me another test for this, please?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXJkQOKDSjg  Copy/paste a small bit of Chinese text from that page, to see if you can see the characters fine.  Also, listen to the song; it's beautiful. :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:14:12 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: .. or if he is gone, could someone else please test that? :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:14:25 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: BTW, thanks, Ideysus, you have been very helpful! 
Sun Nov  1 19:22:31 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii:  YouTube is down for maintenance and will be back shortly. 
Sun Nov  1 19:24:41 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: even if down you can still use many of the urls to watch videos 
Sun Nov  1 19:25:04 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: haha.  How about this one?  http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD 
Sun Nov  1 19:25:44 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Watching the video is just a bonus. :>  Get to work! ;) 
Sun Nov  1 19:26:03 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Firefox can't even display most of those characters. 
Sun Nov  1 19:26:50 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Not quite sure what you want me to do with it... 
Sun Nov  1 19:27:09 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Yeah, I guess your OS doesn't have Asian character support enabled.  I wonder what happens if you paste some of the gibberish anyway?  Paste it into your tf to dchat to me, please. :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:30:49 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Gah. 100mb for 'apt-get install iceweasel-l10n-all' 
Sun Nov  1 19:30:52 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I blame you. 
Sun Nov  1 19:32:06 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: LOL.  Yes, I will take all of the credit for cultural enrichment. :>  The commitee for unicode support gives you its eternal gratitude. ;) 
Sun Nov  1 19:33:02 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: The committee, too. :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:34:07 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I just uninstalled it. I've only got two little SSDs. :-P 
Sun Nov  1 19:35:02 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Ship System Displays?  Cool!! 
Sun Nov  1 19:38:52 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: ponders installing debian now 
Sun Nov  1 19:39:51 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: What do you use now? 
Sun Nov  1 19:40:20 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: mix of things 
Sun Nov  1 19:40:52 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: opensuse is my current vm 
Sun Nov  1 19:41:08 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I tend to recommend ubuntu to people rather than debian. Debian tend to be... hardline... 
Sun Nov  1 19:41:28 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: many are moving to ubuntu 
Sun Nov  1 19:41:34 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: they just released a new version if i remember right 
Sun Nov  1 19:41:53 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: wonder if they will try that new sceduler i read about that is suppose to help desktop side 
Sun Nov  1 19:42:57 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: It doesn't put the emphasis on usabiity or even compatibility. They seem to be more concerned about strict licensing and following strict packaging policies. 
Sun Nov  1 19:44:10 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: i think they focus on usability too 
Sun Nov  1 19:47:26 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I can vouch for the usability focus, for the most part. :)  It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I could in good conscience recommend a Linux distro to friends who were computer-illiterate.  Now, I have successfully switched a handful.  They are even pitching it to others.  Score! :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:48:33 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: yeah overall i think ubuntu is working towards the type of system any grandmother can use 
Sun Nov  1 19:48:37 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Nah. They'll yank packages due to things like licensing regardless. Usability comes second to policy. 
Sun Nov  1 19:48:55 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Oh. To read back, I was talking about Debian. 
Sun Nov  1 19:49:20 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: The reason I recommend Ubuntu (though I use Debian, never Ubuntu) is due to the usability focus. 
Sun Nov  1 19:52:34 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I also like my windows going up in a poof of fire -- but that's just compiz-fusion.  -- and just eye-candy. :) 
Sun Nov  1 19:53:18 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Blech. 
Sun Nov  1 19:53:24 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Now, seeing someone else move a window on their Desktop that doesn't wobble just feels sooo rigid. :> 
Sun Nov  1 19:54:51 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: When KDE4 came out I was revolted with the graphical nonsense... I've converted over to 100% wmii now. 
Sun Nov  1 20:09:07 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Ideysus, why do you choose to use Debian, but never Ubuntu?  I have never spent any significant time trying that, thought I have considered it as a backburner experiment. 
Sun Nov  1 20:10:10 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I understand that Ubuntu is, of course, based on Debian. 
Sun Nov  1 20:11:41 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Flexibility. 
Sun Nov  1 20:11:49 2009 [dchat] Icewolfz@ShadowMUDii: he also likes to be complex 
Sun Nov  1 20:11:58 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I don't want to wait around for a pretty interface to things 
Sun Nov  1 20:12:42 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: As far as I understand Ubuntu is just a prettified debian. Most machines I administer don't have GUIs. 
Sun Nov  1 20:16:07 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I administer various Ubuntu machines via ssh.  The user gets their gui, while I get the flexibility.  I can empathize with the understanding of Ubuntu as a prettified Debian.  Without having researched in-depth, that is also my impression, but I thought there must be something more substantial to it. 
Sun Nov  1 20:16:29 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: s/their gui/their pretty gui/ 
Sun Nov  1 20:16:42 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I guess I was running debian before there was an ubuntu, which plays a part. :-) 
Sun Nov  1 20:16:54 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: :> 
Sun Nov  1 20:17:17 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Hmm. Does it have the range of ports too? 
Sun Nov  1 20:17:38 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Like, sun particularly. 
Sun Nov  1 20:18:38 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: You are almost on the verge of making me test Debian-proper out more thoroughly. :P  I don't actually know what significant differences there are between the two. 
Sun Nov  1 20:21:09 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Well, here is an absolute trash comparison:  http://polishlinux.org/choose/comparison/?distro1=Ubuntu&distro2=Debian 
Sun Nov  1 20:21:12 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: meh 
Sun Nov  1 21:12:41 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=179304  Here is a discussion that, although having a lot of back and forth flaming towards the middle, seems to give me a good sense of the differences.  Of course, I have to apply the detective logic of presuming biases and sorting out the radical elements. :)  In the end, I am at least downloading a Debian ISO now to test myself.  What, is this some kind of payback for the 100mb download!? :P 
Sun Nov  1 21:15:58 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Whoah!  5 DVDs?! 
Sun Nov  1 21:16:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not very good with distributions but I just installed fedora 
Sun Nov  1 21:17:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: are the different flavours of linux radically different or mostly the same under the hood? 
Sun Nov  1 21:17:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I have installed ubuntu and debian before as well 
Sun Nov  1 21:17:54 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: depends on what yer doing and yer level of expertise 
Sun Nov  1 21:18:04 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Depends on how new you are to the concepts. :) 
Sun Nov  1 21:18:20 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if yer a non-developer end-user they can be very different 
Sun Nov  1 21:18:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well mostly i just compile apps and web browse 
Sun Nov  1 21:18:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or write random C++ code frags 
Sun Nov  1 21:18:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: right, so then yeah they have different "feels" 
Sun Nov  1 21:18:47 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: 5 dvds? You aren't downloading the entire distribution are you? 
Sun Nov  1 21:19:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think i used the net install for debian 
Sun Nov  1 21:19:02 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I fondly remember, way back when, when I first switched from Slackware to Red Hat. *shudder* 
Sun Nov  1 21:19:10 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Personally I'd just download the netinst version. 
Sun Nov  1 21:19:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if you spend most of your time at the command line they're not all that different 
Sun Nov  1 21:19:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: to me the only substantial difference is perhaps the slightly different package managers 
Sun Nov  1 21:19:57 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's not like, say, working in solaris after being used to bsd 
Sun Nov  1 21:20:13 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and perhaps certain apps are tested on one distro but perhaps not another 
Sun Nov  1 21:20:22 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Well, I was sort of hoping to get a 1-CD/DVD install, double brownie points for a Live CD.  The first official thing I saw led me to a 5-DVD set or a 31-CD version.  Eek. 
Sun Nov  1 21:20:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think most ppl use the net install 
Sun Nov  1 21:20:49 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i was mostly a suse guy but ubuntu is slowly winning me over 
Sun Nov  1 21:20:52 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: That'll be all the packages. The netinst is the best bet 
Sun Nov  1 21:20:59 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's convenient and the package management is a timesaver 
Sun Nov  1 21:21:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: *nod* 
Sun Nov  1 21:21:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i guess i dont realy do admin stuff so I don't really know all the ins and outs of the system 
Sun Nov  1 21:22:07 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I just kind of use it to run certain things and test things (code wise) 
Sun Nov  1 21:22:27 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: the fedora install I just did was on the PS3 btw 
Sun Nov  1 21:23:09 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: seems to work ok but I need some sort of HDMI cable and perhaps to DVI thing since i cannot seem to see the whole display setting screen :S 
Sun Nov  1 21:25:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: my desktop runs debian bc of the nice precompiled cross compiler stuff not sure if that exists for red had distros 
Sun Nov  1 21:26:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah didnt try that 
Sun Nov  1 21:26:22 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: remember seeing it 
Sun Nov  1 21:27:00 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Oh, I wasn't recommending it (or not).  I am about to download it to try it out.  Don't hog my download bandwidth. :P 
Sun Nov  1 21:27:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: give it a try and tell me about it :D 
Sun Nov  1 21:29:23 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: OK.  I just wish I could decide on which hypervisor to use.  Then I would be set! :> 
Sun Nov  1 21:33:10 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: What is your goal? Something to let you quickly test out a new OS? 
Sun Nov  1 21:33:21 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: If so then I suggest virtual box. 
Sun Nov  1 21:33:36 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Oh. Hypervisor 
Sun Nov  1 21:35:06 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I routinely use Virtual Box.  I like it.  But I will not be able to do any real speed comparisons that way (unless, of course I also VB an Ubuntu Live Cd). 
Sun Nov  1 21:35:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i probably should learn how to use virtual box 
Sun Nov  1 21:35:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i have looked at the source code but so far cannot figure out how it works 
Sun Nov  1 21:36:20 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: probably should understand how ppl. use it first though :P 
Sun Nov  1 21:40:19 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Hypervisor comparisons, Hyper-V vs XenServer vs ESX:  http://virtualizationreview.com/articles/2009/03/02/lab-experiment-hypervisors.aspx 
Sun Nov  1 21:47:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: is anyone looking forward to the new intel multicores? 
Sun Nov  1 21:48:05 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Perhaps if they were produced by AMD.. :) 
Sun Nov  1 21:48:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: are they really releasing hexacores next year? 
Sun Nov  1 21:49:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I like AMD too but I want to play with the new cc-NUMA stuff :D 
Sun Nov  1 21:50:42 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I don't know nuthin'! :)  (It's true, I don't!)  This article seems to indicate that it is "confirmed" as of Sep 21, 2009:  http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/its_official_amd_confirms_hexacore_thuban_cpu 
Sun Nov  1 21:55:13 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah i guess if AMD is doign intel is probably too 
Sun Nov  1 21:55:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i wonder if there is an article on the memory hierarchy yet 
Sun Nov  1 22:13:28 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Could someone with Asian character support, please help me test my display?  Just copy/paste a small amount of Chinese text from this page, onto the dchat channel:  http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD 
Sun Nov  1 22:13:53 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Even if you don't have Asian character support, I guess I would be interested to see if I can see the displayed text on my end. :) 
Sun Nov  1 22:15:19 2009 [dchat] Rotas@Discworld: copy/paste gives "dchat ?????????;“?”,?????????;“?”,?????????[????];??????????," which won't send. 
Sun Nov  1 22:15:52 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Which client are you using? 
Sun Nov  1 22:47:27 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Silenus, my first thought at first boot for the Debian Live CD is that it looks crisp.  That thought was interrupted by a Kernel Crash message window.  That thought was interrupted by the auto-report feature that quickly and painlessly reported to the debian team.  Then I was able to get back to the crispness, since the "kernel crash" detected apparently didn't keep the system from working for now. 
Sun Nov  1 23:05:56 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Hmm. Sounds odd. 
Sun Nov  1 23:08:05 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Odd doesn't even begin to explain it!  Well, maybe it does..  Anyway, after a virtual reboot, the virtual CD refuses to mount!  *boggle*  I have verified the md5sum.  Other CD iso's boot fine.  I am about to test whether enabling the audio is what caused that, though that would also be a boggler. 
Sun Nov  1 23:08:32 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: .. enabling the audio in VirtualBox settings, I meant. 
Sun Nov  1 23:09:11 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: doesn't audio need a real cd drive? 
Sun Nov  1 23:09:42 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: and by audio I assume you mean cd audio 
Sun Nov  1 23:09:45 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Nope.  My Ubuntu Live CD iso gives sound just fine.  I don't mean audio CD, just plain audio from the OS. 
Sun Nov  1 23:10:09 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: yeah, that is weird 
Sun Nov  1 23:10:15 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Either way, I would expect that audio or no, a good CD should boot. 
Sun Nov  1 23:12:30 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: No change (that is good, unfortunately).  The only other difference is that it was a new vm, so VirtualBox popped up a wizard the first time.  Going to try that again. 
Sun Nov  1 23:40:04 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: OK, so VirtualBox had a snapshot on disk that did not display in the list.  No idea how that happened.  Deleted everything for this vm, and started over.  Rebooted the new vm several times.  I still get the "Your system had a kernel failure" message every time I boot.  Now, I also get "An error occurred while loading or saving configuration information for Encyrption Key Agent (Seahorse)...."  And this from a Live CD!  I am becoming quickly unimpressed with this. 
Mon Nov  2 00:32:53 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Impressive. :-) 
Mon Nov  2 00:33:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: tell me about it 
Mon Nov  2 01:07:23 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Yeah, well I'm not done with it yet! (stated in desperate, maniacal manner) :> 
Mon Nov  2 01:11:54 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: good evening 
Mon Nov  2 01:12:08 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Hi! :) 
Mon Nov  2 01:12:51 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: ah, hang on, is this ubuntu server? 
Mon Nov  2 01:13:23 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: I thought there was gonna be a battle there for a moment. upon loading, I was getting a System Error: socket_connect time out error. 
Mon Nov  2 01:14:05 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: because ubuntu server requires pae extensions 
Mon Nov  2 01:15:19 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: No.  I have no current issue with Ubuntu (besides the stupid Window List Content applet bug which is around 8 or 9 years old, but I digress).  I was trying out the Debian 5.0.0 Live CD.  I have now downloaded the netinst CD, and am installing that now.  All within VirtualBox, running on Ubuntu 9.04 Desktop. 
Mon Nov  2 01:15:52 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: you're running debian inside Ubuntu? 
Mon Nov  2 01:16:00 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: not sure about debian, I've always put debian on bare metal 
Mon Nov  2 01:16:24 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: or xen 
Mon Nov  2 01:17:01 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: why not just use a chroot? 
Mon Nov  2 01:18:02 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Detah, I am using a free program, VirtualBox, to emulate a full computer environment.  The CD believes itself to be in a real computer that way. 
Mon Nov  2 01:18:27 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I have no issue with chroot, but am more familiar with VB. 
Mon Nov  2 01:19:50 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: vbox is nice 
Mon Nov  2 01:20:12 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: but 9 times out of 10 a whole extra kernel is overkill 
Mon Nov  2 01:20:13 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Do you actively use Xen?  We were earlier talking about which hypervisor might be best. 
Mon Nov  2 01:20:47 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: yeah, our development and testing environment at work is running on xen 
Mon Nov  2 01:21:07 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: with filesystem mounted over iscsi terminated in dom0 
Mon Nov  2 01:21:49 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Ooh.  How do you like it? 
Mon Nov  2 01:39:10 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: WOOHOO. I love it when code works. 
Mon Nov  2 01:40:54 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan: so do we all :) 
Mon Nov  2 01:41:47 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: We even get that little happy feeling, just seeing your cute little beaming smile. :> 
Mon Nov  2 01:42:29 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: years of work, sweat and even tears. just to get that little woohoo moment. it's all worth it. 
Mon Nov  2 01:42:40 2009 [dchat] A shadow@Leviathan nods vigorously. 
Mon Nov  2 01:42:51 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: What about toil? 
Mon Nov  2 01:43:04 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: And, no blood? 
Mon Nov  2 01:46:00 2009 [dchat] Detah@Arcania: I have a Lian Li case, we dont get blood. 
Mon Nov  2 06:03:23 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: *sigh* Such a long time for a Debian netinst.  On first boot, got a Kernel panic at 7.3 seconds into boot process. :( 
Mon Nov  2 06:08:53 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I will, of course, keep working through this for now, hoping to discover a useable path.  But really, how could I possibly recommend this process (testing, from kernel failures on the Live CD to Kernal panic on first boot) to a newbie? 
Mon Nov  2 06:51:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: Debian netinst does take some time- depends a lot on the bandwidth of the server available tho 
Mon Nov  2 06:55:49 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: and the size and number of packages you're installing 
Mon Nov  2 06:58:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: hmm wonder if this is a wortwhile project 
Mon Nov  2 06:58:26 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Sure, I understand those.  It is for annoying reasons like that, that I like to have the bulk of the files already downloaded when I do an installation. :)  If I actually make the switch to Debian, I will be installing on multiple computers.  I am now downloading the DVD images.  I actually am hoping that I can do useful installation stuff with just the first DVD. 
Mon Nov  2 06:59:04 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: the 1st cd would probably be enough 
Mon Nov  2 06:59:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: dchat are lisp terps/compilers relatively easy to build? 
Mon Nov  2 06:59:31 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: In bash? :> 
Mon Nov  2 06:59:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: in C++ :P 
Mon Nov  2 06:59:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont even know bash :P 
Mon Nov  2 06:59:56 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: debian runs a popularity contest, and this determines which cd/dvd the package will reside on 
Mon Nov  2 07:00:17 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Oh, that is probably easier. heh  Do you already have a lisp grammar to work from? 
Mon Nov  2 07:00:30 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I like that popularity method. :) 
Mon Nov  2 07:00:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: nah but s expression are easy 
Mon Nov  2 07:01:07 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if i can devise a working LPC grammar I am sure I can handle s expressions 
Mon Nov  2 07:01:41 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: :>  And, is this LPC grammar available somewhere? :) 
Mon Nov  2 07:01:55 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: actually it is 
Mon Nov  2 07:02:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I think i stuck it on google code inside the svn repo for lpc on llvm 
Mon Nov  2 07:03:07 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: This guy, Jack Crenshaw, is amazing for a simple method for compiler creation.  http://compilers.iecc.com/crenshaw/  I suspect he may have pulled some of his terminology from the dragon compiler book. :) 
Mon Nov  2 07:03:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: ah interesting front end only tho it seems 
Mon Nov  2 07:04:05 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i actually got my lpc compiler to emit code 
Mon Nov  2 07:04:19 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: only limited stuff but 
Mon Nov  2 07:04:33 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i know how to do frontend backend is what worries me 
Mon Nov  2 07:04:50 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Well, you can emit whatever you want to emit, using that method. 
Mon Nov  2 07:05:04 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah but backend is pretty tricky 
Mon Nov  2 07:05:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: frontend with modern tools is relatively straight forward 
Mon Nov  2 07:05:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I guess if you backend onto a library like LLVM it's all pretty straightforward 
Mon Nov  2 07:06:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but i am not sure LLVM would be a good match for a functional language 
Mon Nov  2 07:06:35 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think some guy said the memory model doesnt match well (when he tried to explore building Haskell on it) 
Mon Nov  2 07:06:40 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: common lisp is not appropriate? 
Mon Nov  2 07:06:57 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Stop all that gushing.  You are going to convince me to look into LLVM more, but I don't have time for another project. :P 
Mon Nov  2 07:06:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: for what I am doing? 
Mon Nov  2 07:07:09 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: aye 
Mon Nov  2 07:07:10 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: LLVM is ok 
Mon Nov  2 07:07:30 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but as I said not appropriate for everything 
Mon Nov  2 07:07:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it's really designed mainly as a C like backend 
Mon Nov  2 07:08:06 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not really I want to experiment with optimization passes 
Mon Nov  2 07:08:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: building this as a prototype 
Mon Nov  2 07:08:58 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: looking over Appel's book (compiling with continuations) however it doesnt look too trivial. 
Mon Nov  2 07:10:05 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not really sure if I have time for a project like this eiter 
Mon Nov  2 07:10:15 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I really should be learnign algorithm analysis 
Mon Nov  2 07:14:26 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: wonder if I should try grabbing lisp in small pieces from the library 
Mon Nov  2 07:14:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but the whole thing might be a hopeless distraction. 
Mon Nov  2 07:20:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yep it's pretty trivial 
Mon Nov  2 07:21:31 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I was certainly surprised at the length.  At first, I thought it was just a sampling.  Nifty. 
Mon Nov  2 07:21:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: the regularity is both a plus and a minus 
Mon Nov  2 07:22:16 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: all those parens make stuff really hard to read 
Mon Nov  2 07:22:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but makes lisp macros extremely powerful 
Mon Nov  2 07:23:22 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am actually trying to achieve a goal and not sure if building a terp is the best way to do it 
Mon Nov  2 07:24:10 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Twerps should not be tolerated. :) 
Mon Nov  2 07:24:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: :P 
Mon Nov  2 07:24:48 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: I want to experiment with parallel algorithms in a functional setting 
Mon Nov  2 07:25:23 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: So, you want to build a cloud compiler! 
Mon Nov  2 07:25:39 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: a wot? :P 
Mon Nov  2 07:26:09 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: A reference to cloud computing.  You can'g get much more 'parallel' than that. 
Mon Nov  2 07:26:28 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: s/can'g/can't 
Mon Nov  2 07:26:30 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but that's mostly for data retrieval isn't it? 
Mon Nov  2 07:27:07 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: have you looked at erlang? 
Mon Nov  2 07:27:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah a bit 
Mon Nov  2 07:27:52 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I was only joking. :P  (But actually, cloud computing could also distribute the processing.) 
Mon Nov  2 07:28:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think the hardest part w.r.t. functional languages might be optimizing memory usage. 
Mon Nov  2 07:29:39 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: scala seems to do okay in the language shootout 
Mon Nov  2 07:29:58 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but scala code can be almost procedural 
Mon Nov  2 07:30:16 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: actually i figure scala = hybrid not really functional 
Mon Nov  2 07:30:33 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: ah, I haven't really looked at it 
Mon Nov  2 07:34:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: writing an good gc might be a rather tough task too 
Mon Nov  2 07:44:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: looking over the gambit scheme source code 
Mon Nov  2 07:44:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: looks purty cool :D 
Mon Nov  2 14:36:26 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: good morning 
Mon Nov  2 14:37:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: soup 
Mon Nov  2 14:37:19 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: debugged skills system last night. Im pretty sure it is done. 
Mon Nov  2 14:37:56 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Ooh!  As in Prime done? :>  Or only completely done? 
Mon Nov  2 14:38:08 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: as in dishes, perhaps 
Mon Nov  2 14:38:36 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Dude! 
Mon Nov  2 14:44:48 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: I am just a visitor on Dead Souls Dev. My skills system is for my mud, Arcania. 
Mon Nov  2 15:51:00 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: guh.  I just tried to login to the company server as "hamlet".  And couldn't figure out why it wouldn't take my password. 
Mon Nov  2 15:51:26 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: That just means that you spend too much time on the company server. :) 
Mon Nov  2 15:53:21 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: the truth you tell is both wise and resonable. 
Mon Nov  2 16:34:56 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: A lisp interpreter should be trivial. And its not like it really has a grammar. Now, an -efficient- lisp interpreter is probably another thing... 
Mon Nov  2 16:35:48 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: You pick up last night's conversation, just like that, eh? :P 
Mon Nov  2 16:36:07 2009 [dchat] Sinistrad@Dead Souls Dev: just like that. 
Mon Nov  2 16:36:32 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Its not my fault you won't all stick to GMT. 
Mon Nov  2 16:38:00 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Also, they are totally not hard to read. :-P 
Mon Nov  2 16:39:26 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Eating breakfast at 4.30pm after chastising people for not sticking to GMT is probably ironic or something. 
Mon Nov  2 16:40:51 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Breakfast sounds like a decent idea now, but I have to reboot now due to SOMEONE nudging me to try some Debian stuff. :~ 
Mon Nov  2 16:41:09 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I said I -don't- recommend Debian to people! 
Mon Nov  2 16:42:00 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I want its debiany goodness all to myself. 
Mon Nov  2 16:43:07 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: Uh-huh.  It's too late.  I already downloaded half the DVD images overnight, and have reallocated a hard disk towards the experiment (fdisking is why I have to reboot). 
Mon Nov  2 16:43:42 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Huh. You sure you have to reboot? 
Mon Nov  2 16:44:26 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I always find that while in practice fdisk says it may need a reboot for the kernel to pick up devices it lies. 
Mon Nov  2 16:49:37 2009 [dchat] Kejope@Cookie Dough: I'm back.  Did I miss anything!? 
Mon Nov  2 17:04:54 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: I guess not... 
Mon Nov  2 17:43:58 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: re : lisp interpreter - want to be able to have it map stuff reasonably effficiently 
Mon Nov  2 17:47:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i.e. if a good interpreter does something in X time this interp should do it in some time that is proportional to X 
Mon Nov  2 17:47:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: been thinking maybe I should hack an existing one 
Mon Nov  2 17:48:10 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and just try adding optimization passes to some existing code. 
Mon Nov  2 17:49:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 
Mon Nov  2 17:50:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: will probably get alot of that valgrind and gdb ftw! 
Mon Nov  2 17:50:48 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i hate 64 bits :( 
Mon Nov  2 17:50:57 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: :( 
Mon Nov  2 17:51:04 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: too many bits 
Mon Nov  2 17:51:08 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i baked them for you 
Mon Nov  2 17:51:10 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: :( 
Mon Nov  2 17:51:19 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: still need to get that HDMI cable 
Mon Nov  2 17:51:33 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and I will test fluffos maybe on ppc64 
Mon Nov  2 17:52:08 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i should say that i hate fluff on 64 bits 
Mon Nov  2 17:52:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: assumptions were made 
Mon Nov  2 17:52:18 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: they were wrong 
Mon Nov  2 17:52:22 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: dead wrong 
Mon Nov  2 17:52:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it will probably blow up :D 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:01 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: on the ppc :P 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: or the sparc 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:29 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:31 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: right 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:34 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: stupid endians 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: is it dem unions again? 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: 64 bits on intel is ok 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:48 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: both linux and solaris 
Mon Nov  2 17:53:56 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's the 64 bits on sparc solaris 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:01 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: but bsd on sparc works great :) 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:09 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: sparc64 that is 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:10 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: rite 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:15 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: after one minor change 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:27 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: stupid incorrect union usage in the lexer 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: hopefully i will get around to testing on ppc tomorrow or something 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:33 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice blames Wodan. 
Mon Nov  2 17:54:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: would be interesting to see if it works :P 
Mon Nov  2 17:55:05 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: you shouldn't blame Wodan.  it only makes him more powerful. 
Mon Nov  2 17:55:07 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: argv=0xffffffff7ffff768 
Mon Nov  2 17:55:08 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: i mean wtf? 
Mon Nov  2 17:55:14 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: lol 
Mon Nov  2 17:55:24 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if it doesnt i guess it will make me learn debugging or something :P 
Mon Nov  2 17:55:31 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: will he open one of his seven mouths and sing the song that will end the world? 
Mon Nov  2 17:56:54 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: no, he will open one of his seven error logs and grep the regex that will end the /dev/. 
Mon Nov  2 17:57:06 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: THE HORROR! 
Mon Nov  2 17:57:12 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: wunder wat happens if you try to compile mudos in 64 
Mon Nov  2 17:57:21 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: BadThings(tm) 
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