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Fri Nov  6 02:38:10 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am not denying innovation Crat 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am saying it's limited 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:24 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev:  there are new ideas 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but just not many 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well with that attitude, yeah 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:48 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: lol 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: heh 
Fri Nov  6 02:38:58 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: I want SilC 
Fri Nov  6 02:39:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: LOL 
Fri Nov  6 02:39:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont have any fresh ideas unfortunately 
Fri Nov  6 02:39:25 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you aint kidn 
Fri Nov  6 02:39:34 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: A well-written program is its own heaven; a poorly-written program is its own hell. 
Fri Nov  6 02:39:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah but core languages you see in most papers 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:06 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not many fresh ideas 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: many dependent types is sort of fresh 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:17 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Only a fool expects rational behavior from his fellow humans. Why do you expect it from a machine that humans have constructed? 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: er maybe 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if you can look around and "ho hum" at the limits you see, it is because you stand on the shoulders of giants 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the fish does not know about water 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not what i am saying either 
Fri Nov  6 02:40:57 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i said there are innovations 
Fri Nov  6 02:41:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: GIANTS 
Fri Nov  6 02:41:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but there are more so many languages out there 
Fri Nov  6 02:41:17 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: Would you believe really big goats? 
Fri Nov  6 02:41:23 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it means very big people who also are tall 
Fri Nov  6 02:41:25 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: a lot of them just recycle stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:43:16 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: lambda calculus = neat 
Fri Nov  6 02:43:47 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: lol assignment operator. always evaluates as true 
Fri Nov  6 02:43:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: languages inspired by it also interesting lisp/scheme etc 
Fri Nov  6 02:44:12 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: programming in lisp is like speaking in japanese... it's all backwards 
Fri Nov  6 02:44:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: typed lambda calculi crossed type theory with lambda calculi 
Fri Nov  6 02:44:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: guess you get stuff like ML from that too 
Fri Nov  6 02:44:36 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: lamb broccoli... yum! 
Fri Nov  6 02:45:09 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: less original perhaps than lambda calculus itself but i guess still an interesting thing in some ways 
Fri Nov  6 02:45:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i guess you also have operational semantics 
Fri Nov  6 02:46:10 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if you don't like the functional stuff 
Fri Nov  6 02:46:11 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yuckolic 
Fri Nov  6 02:46:16 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yuccoli 
Fri Nov  6 02:46:22 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yucckoli 
Fri Nov  6 02:46:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: for concurrent stuff there is a ton of models 
Fri Nov  6 02:46:54 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i like broccoli actually, but it's the melted cheese that really makes a good broc dish 
Fri Nov  6 02:47:14 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: or soy sauce. 
Fri Nov  6 02:47:38 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: a good gooey sauce too ya, like general tso's 
Fri Nov  6 02:47:40 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but new semantic models are few and far between except in the concurrent sphere i guess. 
Fri Nov  6 02:48:01 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: apparently that's pronounced "cho" 
Fri Nov  6 02:48:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and then a lot of stuff boils down to formal language theory or syntrax i.e. not much there either. 
Fri Nov  6 02:48:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: http://lpmuds.net/cho.gif 
Fri Nov  6 02:48:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: fair number of constructs you find in newer languages have existed for a long time 
Fri Nov  6 02:50:14 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: (: cho :) 
Fri Nov  6 02:50:31 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: functionals ftw :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:51:01 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: no those are two people smiling with a cho between them 
Fri Nov  6 02:51:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: so i was leafing through this month's Science magazine 
Fri Nov  6 02:51:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: :-) 
Fri Nov  6 02:52:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: anything interesting? 
Fri Nov  6 02:52:15 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: does it have naked sciency things in it? 
Fri Nov  6 02:52:18 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: (i became a member of the aaas due to an internet dispute and i needed access to a scholarly article) 
Fri Nov  6 02:52:33 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: ah :-) 
Fri Nov  6 02:52:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and theyre like "hong kong, lol" 
Fri Nov  6 02:52:50 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: cuz apparently a vast number of schools are largely private 
Fri Nov  6 02:53:00 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and tons of them are creationist 
Fri Nov  6 02:53:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: wot schools? 
Fri Nov  6 02:53:28 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: the ones with kids 
Fri Nov  6 02:53:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well that clarifies things :P 
Fri Nov  6 02:54:51 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and? 
Fri Nov  6 02:54:53 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well the article wasnt about listing the names 
Fri Nov  6 02:57:31 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: wot else did the article say? 
Fri Nov  6 02:57:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev looks at Hamlat suspishusly. 
Fri Nov  6 02:59:49 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: oh some blah blah yadda about some government thing ruling that evolution should be taught 
Fri Nov  6 03:00:05 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and how toothless the ordinance was and that prolly it wont change much 
Fri Nov  6 03:00:10 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and what made you mention it? 
Fri Nov  6 03:00:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i was mostly educated while i was studying in HK in the ESF system 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not too familiar with the chinese school system 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:15 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: who knows how my crazy mind works 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but i do know 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:22 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i know i dont 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:24 2009 [dchat] Kalinash@Fire and Ice: communist school system 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: that a lot o f the schools are founded by the church originally 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so there might be a bit too that. 
Fri Nov  6 03:01:55 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: oh i know now 
Fri Nov  6 03:02:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but that's the first i heard of it 
Fri Nov  6 03:02:24 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i wanted to derail you from the lambda metaparadigm synoclastic phase talk 
Fri Nov  6 03:02:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: figured that hk + fundamentalists would do the job 
Fri Nov  6 03:02:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and it did! 
Fri Nov  6 03:02:48 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but i already stopped doing that :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:03:00 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i'll take credit all the same 
Fri Nov  6 03:03:02 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so wots the point? 
Fri Nov  6 03:03:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: go ahead be my guest :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:03:25 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: this is intermud. point is optional 
Fri Nov  6 03:03:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: heh 
Fri Nov  6 03:03:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: did you make all that up? 
Fri Nov  6 03:04:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: no thats a real thing, check the latest issue 
Fri Nov  6 03:04:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well a lot of the schools = taught by priests and nuns in the old days 
Fri Nov  6 03:05:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so who knows 
Fri Nov  6 03:05:13 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: dont you think the lambda paradigm is kinda old now tho? i mean, that's not really innovation 
Fri Nov  6 03:05:26 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's more like fancy self-reference dressed up as cleverness 
Fri Nov  6 03:05:37 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it was when it was constructed tho 
Fri Nov  6 03:05:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: so was the wheel 
Fri Nov  6 03:05:55 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you want to get back on this topic? :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:04 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: naw i just wanna get off the nuns now 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:13 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: figured the lambdas would do it 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: heh 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:33 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so you are trolling :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:40 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: no i'm oscillating 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:46 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and trolling :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:06:49 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you don't blame cesium for being cesium, do you? 
Fri Nov  6 03:07:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: definitely trolling :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:07:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but oh no. let crat do it, and he's the bad guy 
Fri Nov  6 03:07:13 2009 [dchat] Ideysus@ShadowMUDii: Yeah, but after the wheel was around a bit people didn't just create square ones to be innovative. :-P 
Fri Nov  6 03:08:20 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: "this one is crimson! not the old, boring wood color" 
Fri Nov  6 03:08:31 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: "that's...that's blood" 
Fri Nov  6 03:08:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: "oh suddenly i'm the bad guy" 
Fri Nov  6 03:09:01 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: heh 
Fri Nov  6 03:09:08 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but you were trolling me :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:09:20 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont think you care which way the answer turned out :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:09:38 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's not that i dont care 
Fri Nov  6 03:09:47 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i'm just brave enough to accept whatever tyhe truth is 
Fri Nov  6 03:09:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so even though i could defend lambda calc and waste time 
Fri Nov  6 03:10:03 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont think you even care about the answer 
Fri Nov  6 03:10:26 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: heh member that time we were debating set theory 
Fri Nov  6 03:10:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and you couldnt tell if i knew what i was talking about 
Fri Nov  6 03:10:39 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that was my favorite 
Fri Nov  6 03:10:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: oh i didnt think that was a debate 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that's what the loser would say 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:07 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and i could actually tell 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:14 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: oh sure you say that now 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:16 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i wasnt sure how much you knew :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: seriously dude 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you always think about things in terms of winners and losers 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am one of those ppl who doesnt care :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: cuz when you win, it's obvious 
Fri Nov  6 03:11:57 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i just like discussions 
Fri Nov  6 03:12:03 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: when you lose, it's "complicated" 
Fri Nov  6 03:12:11 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: doesnt matter who wins or loses 
Fri Nov  6 03:12:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont even thing of it as win for me 
Fri Nov  6 03:12:30 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: just discussion to find more information about the subject 
Fri Nov  6 03:12:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and sometimes it is complicated :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:05 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: as you yourself pointed out 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:14 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but look at you 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:15 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am motivated by curiosity primarily 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:18 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: look at you right now 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:21 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: right this minute 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:24 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: this very moment 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:26 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and? 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:28 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: just sayin 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:38 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you're more competitive than you pretend 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:47 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:54 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but my motives are 
Fri Nov  6 03:13:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: learn moar 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:00 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: oh sure, hem and haw 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:06 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not win the current debate 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:08 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but you know i say truthness 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:19 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so if you are saying that is competitiveness sure 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:39 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but i direct most of my competitiveness into learn moar mode 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i smile in rich smugness 
Fri Nov  6 03:14:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not in winning debates 
Fri Nov  6 03:15:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: crat i try to clarify and seek truth not win/lose so much in the immediate sense 
Fri Nov  6 03:15:52 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: meh 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:11 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i.e. if someone points out some facts i am not aware of 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:12 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you advocate an adversarial dialectic 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:15 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or arguments 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:17 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i advocate it too 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:22 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am like fun fun 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:26 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: im just more ok with the mechanics of it 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:43 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont mind dialectic 
Fri Nov  6 03:16:50 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you aint kidn 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: rhetoric i dont like so much 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:12 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: rhetoric gets a bad rhap 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:16 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but then again i am more of a science guy 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so that might be why 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:22 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it is the coin of the realm and the tool of debate 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:33 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: as i said i 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: dont really like debates 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:41 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: rhetoric for its own sake leads to specius sophistry, sure 
Fri Nov  6 03:17:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i like discussions 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i.e. getting closer to the truth 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:07 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but "i dont like rhetoric" is like "i dont like hammers or screwdrivers" 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:16 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's what we got as tools for the whole language thang 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:23 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: depends on what you are doing with language 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:31 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i do magic 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:32 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if you are debating sure 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if you are trying to employ dialectical reasoning to try to understand something 
Fri Nov  6 03:18:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: maybe not so useful 
Fri Nov  6 03:19:13 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well im pretty sure on intermud "useful" is relative 
Fri Nov  6 03:19:23 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: amirite 
Fri Nov  6 03:19:27 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and as i said rhetoric i dont like but i mean personally 
Fri Nov  6 03:19:35 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: not that you shouldnt like it 
Fri Nov  6 03:19:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i might just not understand it that well 
Fri Nov  6 03:20:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: ohh.. suddenly yer socrates 
Fri Nov  6 03:20:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: eh? 
Fri Nov  6 03:20:29 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: dc is joak. socrates would pretend to be ignorant of basic concepts 
Fri Nov  6 03:20:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: oh you mean in plato's dialogues? 
Fri Nov  6 03:20:47 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that is what i mean 
Fri Nov  6 03:20:57 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: ah heh nah i wish i knew that trick 
Fri Nov  6 03:21:01 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but i dont 
Fri Nov  6 03:21:13 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i just taught it to ya. use it in good health, sir 
Fri Nov  6 03:21:19 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i just picked up a book on rhetoric sort of 
Fri Nov  6 03:21:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: just in case i need it for certain types of writing 
Fri Nov  6 03:21:55 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well what people can use more of is not an understanding of "rhetoric" so much 
Fri Nov  6 03:22:06 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but in general when i am vetting ideas i use dialctical tools only. 
Fri Nov  6 03:22:10 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: as an understanding of fallacies, how to spot them, and how to avoid them 
Fri Nov  6 03:22:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: the problem is 
Fri Nov  6 03:22:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what i think is most often identified as "just rhetoric" is, i think, actually fallacious argument 
Fri Nov  6 03:22:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: for me anyhow 
Fri Nov  6 03:23:31 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well i guess fallacy = flawed dialectic? 
Fri Nov  6 03:23:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well it's a failure of reasoning 
Fri Nov  6 03:23:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: for me i am talking about rhetorical devices 
Fri Nov  6 03:24:00 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: which sway public opinion on an emotive level 
Fri Nov  6 03:24:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but have no real sound basis i.e. you could interpret either way 
Fri Nov  6 03:24:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: sometimes those are jokes 
Fri Nov  6 03:24:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think politicians use those a lot. 
Fri Nov  6 03:24:51 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yes and no 
Fri Nov  6 03:25:11 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: generally politicians behave as they feel they must in order to be elected 
Fri Nov  6 03:25:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well relatively speaking 
Fri Nov  6 03:25:25 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: so they dont do very much rhetorical suasion 
Fri Nov  6 03:25:26 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: compared to reading some argued piece in a science journal. 
Fri Nov  6 03:25:32 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: as much as rhetorical self defense 
Fri Nov  6 03:26:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well anyhow i just would like to understand what the subject is about since i do find people do use rhetorical devices quite a bit 
Fri Nov  6 03:26:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and a lot of them have emotive impact 
Fri Nov  6 03:26:50 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: it's a social thing 
Fri Nov  6 03:26:54 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but on some level arguably it is just that 
Fri Nov  6 03:27:03 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: you should read the cratylus, actually 
Fri Nov  6 03:27:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: beyond the emotive impact there might be little substance. 
Fri Nov  6 03:27:18 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: what is that dialogue about? 
Fri Nov  6 03:27:20 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: imo it's pretty much about this thing 
Fri Nov  6 03:27:38 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: on the surface there's a silly debate about where words come from 
Fri Nov  6 03:28:02 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but i think it deals on a deeper level with the nature of debate 
Fri Nov  6 03:28:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: imo what puzzles you is the social aspect of rhetoric 
Fri Nov  6 03:28:59 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that you will not undestand from a book 
Fri Nov  6 03:29:46 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well partly i just want to identify the techniques in the written form mostly at this time 
Fri Nov  6 03:29:48 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: for example, allow me to drop my normal sill ything for a moment 
Fri Nov  6 03:29:56 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i like you and like talking with you 
Fri Nov  6 03:30:22 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: in doing so, i occasionally indulge in humorous digressions 
Fri Nov  6 03:30:30 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: digressions *I* find humorous, in any case 
Fri Nov  6 03:30:54 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: which you might interpret as trolling, but i interpret as jocular use of language with someone i like to talk with 
Fri Nov  6 03:31:07 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i think this is what you find confusing 
Fri Nov  6 03:31:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: oh sure i was half joking too :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:31:16 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: what you're saying is that you enjoy trolling 
Fri Nov  6 03:31:19 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: not really "rhetoric" as a formal subject of study 
Fri Nov  6 03:31:43 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but anyhow cozminsky does have a point :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:32:03 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i.e. i wasnt like some guy accusing you of seriously offensive trolling in this case 
Fri Nov  6 03:32:06 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: also wittgenstein 
Fri Nov  6 03:32:11 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i was kind of teasing you :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:33:43 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: it also comes down to culture and familiarity 
Fri Nov  6 03:34:18 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: the trolling is much more frequent and intense on imud_gossip 
Fri Nov  6 03:34:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah could be 
Fri Nov  6 03:34:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well i think that in general there is a differenc ebetween trolling and goofing around 
Fri Nov  6 03:35:31 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont really follow intergossip 
Fri Nov  6 03:35:44 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: nog, but if you're used to serious discussions in a particular forum then your tolerance for goofing around gets lower 
Fri Nov  6 03:36:08 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: for example, there's a fella i know that's liable to say stuff about how people who think global warming is real are just dumb etc 
Fri Nov  6 03:36:37 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and will keep saying stuff like that til someone finally bites and attempts to refute the argument 
Fri Nov  6 03:36:46 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: and then that person is used as an amusing chew toy 
Fri Nov  6 03:37:03 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that's meanspirited and what i would be inclined to call trolling 
Fri Nov  6 03:37:29 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: whereas me goofin around pokin at silenus for being more competitive than he lets on 
Fri Nov  6 03:37:33 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: that's goofin around 
Fri Nov  6 03:37:55 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i guess for me it's just posting something that deliberately tries to provoke a reaction from a person or persons 
Fri Nov  6 03:38:21 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: on issues where you dont really care too much 
Fri Nov  6 03:38:25 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: about 
Fri Nov  6 03:38:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: usually for amusement value mostly i guess. 
Fri Nov  6 03:39:26 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well good thing im not that provocative 
Fri Nov  6 03:39:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: like some guy on a gaming forum posting things likes OMG my class sucks for x y z 
Fri Nov  6 03:39:45 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: 1999 was 10 years ago 
Fri Nov  6 03:39:54 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: mischan 
Fri Nov  6 03:40:06 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: in reality probably he doesnt even play said class 
Fri Nov  6 03:40:25 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and just wants to see ppl react 
Fri Nov  6 03:41:05 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i dont mind that so much 
Fri Nov  6 03:41:07 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so you get a bunch of posts attacking this persons supposed position 
Fri Nov  6 03:41:24 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: and probably the person in question is just like LOL 
Fri Nov  6 03:41:27 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: what annoys me is wastes-of-time, those impervious to reason 
Fri Nov  6 03:41:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: stuff like that doesnt bother me too much but i think that it is a form of baiting which isn't so nice. 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:20 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: some people are boot at baiting 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:25 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: kali is a master at it 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:28 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well i find impervious to reason stuff just hard to 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:35 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: heh no doubt :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:38 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: deal with too 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:46 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: a master baiter 
Fri Nov  6 03:42:49 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but it's like i just give up before i start 
Fri Nov  6 03:43:16 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well i like to try to "reach" them 
Fri Nov  6 03:43:21 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: like nafe and fury 
Fri Nov  6 03:43:33 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but eventually you just...there's not much to do 
Fri Nov  6 03:43:39 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah. 
Fri Nov  6 03:43:52 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you cannot really do much it's like arguing about religion with someone 
Fri Nov  6 03:44:04 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: they will always find reasons to believe their position 
Fri Nov  6 03:44:11 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it's not about reason 
Fri Nov  6 03:44:19 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it's about faith 
Fri Nov  6 03:44:27 2009 [dchat] Cozminsky@EotL: unless they don't have a position 
Fri Nov  6 03:44:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so ends up 
Fri Nov  6 03:44:44 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: they just go back and find new ways to substantiate their position 
Fri Nov  6 03:45:05 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: mostly ad infinitum 
Fri Nov  6 03:45:34 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or get extremely discouraged i.e. crisis of faith 
Fri Nov  6 03:45:43 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: then they should not argue with me 
Fri Nov  6 03:45:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: which might be even a worse situation to be in. 
Fri Nov  6 03:46:14 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: well i guess in a public forum it's a bit of a problem 
Fri Nov  6 03:46:22 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: remember the guy with the soapy ants? 
Fri Nov  6 03:46:25 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i guess in private it's like well 
Fri Nov  6 03:46:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: just let it be is my attitude 
Fri Nov  6 03:46:45 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah 
Fri Nov  6 03:47:36 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: unless of course they are too assertive about it and trying to force their pov down your throat so to speak. 
Fri Nov  6 03:48:37 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: well 
Fri Nov  6 03:48:55 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: if they're wrong, then that's ok to say 
Fri Nov  6 03:49:20 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: their reaction sometimes winds up turning overly aggressive as a result 
Fri Nov  6 03:49:29 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: hard to say "who started it" 
Fri Nov  6 03:49:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: but i think it's ok to point out that soapy ants dont actually kill each other 
Fri Nov  6 03:49:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: oh sure 
Fri Nov  6 03:50:12 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i think the problem in a public forum sometimes also is the guy loses face if you press too hard 
Fri Nov  6 03:50:26 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: it's ok to say the guy is wrong 
Fri Nov  6 03:51:17 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: also in your position i think versus some unknown guy we do know that usually you do check your facts out properly. 
Fri Nov  6 03:51:34 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: dude i got a membership to aaas, no less 
Fri Nov  6 03:51:35 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: so once you said that i dont think many people would have believed him 
Fri Nov  6 03:51:41 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: LOL 
Fri Nov  6 03:51:53 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: thes ejournals are way too smart for me 
Fri Nov  6 03:51:59 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i know some guys who do reach nature on a regular basis 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:10 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: or did know 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:19 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: but its usually the prof science types 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:34 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: dont think anyone else really pays close attention to that stuff 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:37 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: theyre like the plantangent cosine og b sub x should alert the clever reader of the echo super theta sine wave coefficient 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:50 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: lol 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:52 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: im like "durrrrrrrr" 
Fri Nov  6 03:52:53 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: yep :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:53:29 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: i am a pretty hard core science guy and if it's outside certain areas which i have studied i really dont have a clue either :D 
Fri Nov  6 03:53:58 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: looking back on it, i dont think i even needed to do that 
Fri Nov  6 03:54:30 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: i have a computer inside a uni network, i cuda just accessed one of three dozen scholarly access sites 
Fri Nov  6 03:54:42 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: ah yeah 
Fri Nov  6 03:54:47 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: if you have a machine like that 
Fri Nov  6 03:54:50 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: musta been drunk 
Fri Nov  6 03:54:56 2009 [dchat] Silenus@Dead Souls Dev: you can get their ejournal access 
Fri Nov  6 03:55:00 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: yeah 
Fri Nov  6 03:55:21 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: heat of the moment i guess 
Fri Nov  6 10:25:57 2009 [dchat] Nilrin@Rebirth: Just finished my first Discworld book today. Good stuff. 
Fri Nov  6 14:32:04 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: morninging 
Fri Nov  6 15:33:12 2009 [dchat] Detah@Dead Souls Dev: good morning 
Fri Nov  6 15:33:43 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: fridays are typically good, yes! 
Fri Nov  6 15:33:44 2009 [dchat] Cratylus@Dead Souls Dev: soup 
Fri Nov  6 19:11:01 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: wheee.  "out of memory!" 
Fri Nov  6 19:11:13 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: never want a webserver to report that.  even indirectly. 
Fri Nov  6 20:46:15 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: what's sokkard? 
Fri Nov  6 20:46:35 2009 [dchat] Connick@Discworld: Hyuk hyuk. It's an NPC. 
Fri Nov  6 20:59:45 2009 [dchat] Tricky@Rock the Halo: Try "System Error: socket_connect: connect:No buffer space available"... Only thing I could do about that was to reboot. 
Fri Nov  6 21:04:22 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: lovely. 
Sat Nov  7 03:56:13 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: Thank you for submitting your payment. 
Sat Nov  7 03:59:09 2009 [dchat] Hamlet@WWC-west: heh 
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